DS15 just casually said something really disturbing about how their school treats "Special Ed" kids

[Evangeli]

"Did you know they make the Special Ed kids do all the chores at school?"

"Huh? What chores?"

"They empty the garbage bins and take them out"

"Wha? Which kids?"

"yeah, they go around the classrooms and empty the bins. They said it's to have them participate and be engaged. I think it's a just a cover to get them do chores".

Is it me or does this sound really messed up??

Nothing shows the children don't do academic lessons as well. Common to remove some children from one "block" of the timetable (eg from a foreign language) to do one block of something else - could be help with literacy, could be a practical subject leading to a qualification. There's the tiniest snapshot in the OP about what is going on. We do not know.
If the impression the other teenagers have is this is a job for children with learning difficulties, and they look down on them, I would pass that on to the school as it may need some rebranding.

I would definitely email and ask, because even if it is innocent, if its being conveyed that way to the kids it's a problem.

Several American pps have confirmed that this is typical for schools in America and Canada.
I think pps are really looking for the posituve based on UK experience and norms.

Saraclara, it heartens me to think of people like you working with children with SEN.

Thanks for all the responses.

I think they key point is that even if this is part of a super-informative, valuable, well-thought-out citizenship/conservation/organizational life skills project, (which it may well be), the picture it conveys to the other teens is:
"It's just the school using them to do the chores"
"It's super fucked-up, but not my place to say anything".

As for my choice of words- I am using the terminology used here. In fact, I've heard most people used the abbreviation "Sped kids", (both teachers and kids), as in "Are you sped?" "he's in sped".

I put "normal" in quotes not because I couldn't type out the word neurotypical, but to indicate that is how the kids who are not "sped" are perceived.

Also, I do not think, and I hope I have raised my children not to think there is anything menial and demeaning about cleaning. In fact, ironically enough, DS is responsible for the garbage in our household.

I just think having a "special group" of children (who are already stigmatized societally) doing jobs which are also devalued socially reinforces the wrong message, and I just hope those kids have the option not to do it, because if they were forced to take garbage whilst at school, then it really would be "super fucked-up".

"I just think having a "special group" of children (who are already stigmatized societally) doing jobs which are also devalued socially reinforces the wrong message"

I agree. I wonder if posters would be ok with it if it were a different group that often face prejudice and discrimation, doing it. If they are learning anything from this, there are other ways to learn it.

@Spikeyball exactly- another poster drew a comparison about girls cooking and serving the boys in the previous generation as part of "life skills/organizational skills" educational activities, and I think it's apt!

@PlanktonsComputerWife

Saraclara, it heartens me to think of people like you working with children with SEN.

Thank you! I'm actually recently retired now, but attitudes to the children I used to teach and their families, is still my sopabox.

I have some amazing ex-colleagues who are still fighting the good fight in the classroom though.

YANBU; this sounds awful and (I don't think) would happen in the UK so it's outside the experience of most of us. Hence, I think, the struggle to understand what you seem to be describing here and the attempts to reframe it into a positive project. Assuming it is how your son has described, it is not positive in the slightest - it's discriminatory and almost teaching children to devalue both children with additional needs and jobs like cleaning.

Having said that, I do think there is a cultural difference in the language that is seen as acceptable. On mumsnet, saying 'special ed' jars and sounds unacceptable. But (from my less than ideal knowledge base of North American books and films/tv!) I think the accepted terminology is very different there and actually the whole approach is - is it still common to have a separate class for children with additional needs and to call it 'special ed'? Some schools have units for children with ASD, visual or hearing impairments within a mainstream school but it wouldn't be called special ed and there will be as much integration as possible. I think.

@blameitonthecaffeine yeah, it's kinda (I think, honestly I don't know that much either) as you describe it, there are "sped" classes for the "sped kids", in the mainstream schools. At least that's how it is in our area. I don't know what the criteria is to be in those classes.

The garbage-taking is bullshit and it's actually good to know that it's not the norm in the UK.

the picture it conveys to the other teens is: “It's just the school using them to do the chores" "It's super fucked-up, but not my place to say anything"

Which is a problem with their perception, rather than a problem with the situation. You think they should change how they educate children with SEN because your teens don’t understand it? You want to challenge the school on it rather than teaching your own children that this happens because maybe the educators think there is value in it and that actually it is wrong to assume the person emptying the bins is someone to be pitied and looked down upon

As for my choice of words- I am using the terminology used here. In fact, I've heard most people used the abbreviation "Sped kids", (both teachers and kids), as in "Are you sped?" "he's in sped".

And yet on being told that actually, that kind of terminology is quite offensive and isn’t used elsewhere in the world, you continue to use it, in seemingly a goady way in later posts, rather than thinking “ok, I’m on a global forum, I’ll take that on board, particularly when I am speaking to parents of those children” Apple. Tree.

*I put "normal" in quotes not because I couldn't type out the word neurotypical, but to indicate that is how the kids who are not "sped" are perceived.”

By whom? Because it wasn’t a quote from your children in that scenario.

"You think they should change how they educate children with SEN because your teens don’t understand it?"

The school should understand how this will be perceived by other teenagers. I taught in mainstream for many years as well as now having a teenager with SEND and I know how it will be perceived.

The school should understand how this will be perceived by other teenagers. I taught in mainstream for many years as well as now having a teenager with SEND and I know how it will be perceived

And the answer is always to educate the kids in mainstream, it is never to change your practice in educating children with SEN.

My daughter’s primary school had an enhanced provision unit as part of their school. The children I’m the unit were an integral part of the school community. They joined their year classes where they could, the mainstream kids would go into the unit and play with or read to the pupils there, they took part in school shows and assemblies. Right from when they joined the school, the kids were taught that sometimes they might act in certain ways or do certain things, and if any of them were seen or heard laughing or making fun of them or staring at them, they were dealt with in an age appropriate way. They also had all the kids do litter duties and clean up in the lunch hall.

The secondary school she is at now, has four feeder schools which each had a similar unit. Having a disability herself, she has had no issue with other kids treating her negatively or picking on her for her disability, because these kids have been taught early that people are more than just their disability. It is important that schools challenge these perceptions in mainstream rather than be concerned about how things will look.

[quote Evangeli]@blameitonthecaffeine yeah, it's kinda (I think, honestly I don't know that much either) as you describe it, there are "sped" classes for the "sped kids", in the mainstream schools. At least that's how it is in our area. I don't know what the criteria is to be in those classes.

The garbage-taking is bullshit and it's actually good to know that it's not the norm in the UK.[/quote]
What do you think the criteria, are for special ed?r?
What is a sped kid in your eyes?
Obviously you consider your dc are not sped ? Why not?

You consider them other but in what way?
Is it dyslexia or what?

"They also had all the kids do litter duties and clean up in the lunch hall."

But this school doesn't - only those with send. You don't promote inclusivity by having one group of children clean up after another group who are being educated. The set up described doesn't exist in UK schools. My nephew attends a resource base. When he is in the mainstream part of the school he does the same activities as the other children.

@Embracelife
"Obviously you consider your dc are not sped ? Why not?"
because they're not put in the sped classes?
"You consider them other but in what way?"
In the way that the school has put them on garbage duty while the other kids are in class?

I don't get the point you are trying to make here. I get that some UK mumsnetters are hating the jargon "sped" - which is used by kids and teachers here, I get it, it's jarring to hear people from different places refer to things differently, but really the "sped"/"send" is not the point under discussion. For me it is: "Is it ok to have a group of kids labelled in a particular way empty the garbage in classes while other kids are in the class being taught". I think not, some agree and some don't. You can discuss the sped/send terminology if you like, but that is not what I am discussing.

@BoredZelda I actually mentioned upthread that maybe there should be a wider community education piece by the school on this highly useful educational practice of having kids take out garbage while their peers in class, so other kids don't think its "super fucked-up" and the schools are "using them for chores"- I don't know why parents should be expected to do that since we are not the ones appearing to exploit the "sped kids" in the first place. For all I know, the school is in fact exploiting them because their janitorial budget got cut back in the 1990s and they were told to use the kids. What we hear about teachers paying for supplies out of pocket etc wouldn''t surprise me, tbh. Furthermore, parents not being educators, I doubt they could educate convincingly on what a great project this is- especially if they are deeply skeptical as to how it is conducted, as I am.

"And the answer is always to educate the kids in mainstream, it is never to change your practice in educating children with SEN." Why? Are the practices in educating children with SEN sacred and carved in stone that they should never be changed? If a practice is shown to be contributing to further stigmatization of a group of kids already stigmatized, still shouldn't be changed? I'm sorry, I don't agree with you.

My son has a dx of asd. I wouldn't be happy if this happened to him if only send children were the ones who were collecting the rubbish

There are far better ways of engaging children with send