To try to find out how my uncle died?

[Keke94LND]

So 18 years ago, my uncle died, I was 9 at the time.

I don't remember a lot about my uncle, he was very quiet, quite reclusive, he lived with my Nan pretty much until he died (he was in his 40s) I know he had mental health problems and possibly some drug addictions.

Since his death, no one in my family has ever really talked about him, I think it's mainly because they don't want to bring him up around my Nan, although in recent years my Nan has talked about him a few times. But every time she has I've been sort of shocked just because he is never spoken about. It's like him and his death is some sort of family secret or topic that we don't speak about, for some reason.

I have spoken to my mum about him and his death before, but she has no idea how he died, no one does, except for my Nan. and for some reason even though they are incredibly close, my mum has never/won't ask her.

I have always been curious of what happened, especially because it's a secret, WIBU to try and find out what happened? I am considering trying to find/buy his death certificate as surely that will state cause of death, the only thing stopping me is, is the next of kin ever notified if someone orders a death certificate? (I.e will my Nan find out I have ordered it? I wouldn't want to upset her

[quote Keke94LND]@Verfremdungseffekt mum definitely doesn't know, my Nan is a really private person (often because she is protective), whereas my mum is a super open person. When I discussed it with her before, she said that she didn't know how he died and she can't ask about it and that she probably won't know until my Nan is gone, she was definitely telling the truth, I think she does wonder about it too, but yeah there may be a part of her that doesn't want to find out if it is something horrible [/quote]
I have to say that I do find a lack of curiousity about this sort of thing really hard to understand. By curiousity I don't mean nosiness, but just the need to find out why a brother had died. I know it does happen, but it definitely wouldn't in ours.

@TheYearOfSmallThings

I would probably not pry into this. It sounds as if he lived rather a sad life and died rather a sad death. If your grandmother wants to speak about him, by all means listen and allow him to do so, but don't dig around to satisfy your curiosity.

I might be the only person, but I actually find that quite offensive although you almost certainly don't mean it to be.

Someone having a sad life and a sad death doesn't mean that their life wasn't valid or worthwhile. Almost everyone will have had some positive impact on someone else at some point. Vincent van Gogh for instance had a rather pathetic existence and a slow, lingering suicide. That doesn't make his life irrelevant nor mean people shouldn't try to understand him or what made him work.

The only reason not to pry would be if the OP were doing it for morbid reasons, or to gloat over the person's failures, which there is no suggestion they are doing.

What will you do with the information? Once you know then what your curiosity is settled and you will be in the know will you tell your mum other family members or just keep it to yourself . This isn't your business I honestly think you should let it lie .

The only reason not to pry would be if the OP were doing it for morbid

Well it is for morbid reasons what else can it be this isn't ancestry research this is recent times people the uncles mother is still alive and to be nosing into a death is morbid curiosity.

Was he your mum's brother? How could she not know how he died?

Why isn't it the op's business. It's her family too.

I do family history. You could say that none of that is my business either, but it's fascinating and in a way, it brings the dead back to life and honours them.

Obviously recent history requires more tack and empathy, but in op's shoes I would want to know too. Once you know there's a mystery in your family it's hard to let it go. It's how you deal with the information that really matters and I hope the op will be careful.

@Mrsjayy

What will you do with the information? Once you know then what your curiosity is settled and you will be in the know will you tell your mum other family members or just keep it to yourself . This isn't your business I honestly think you should let it lie .

I kind of disagree it's not my business though, he was my mums brother, my uncle, when I say I don't remember much about him, I don't mean I remember nothing. A lot of my memories from before I was 9, he was always there, he just wasn't a 'life and soul of the party' type, he didn't speak that much.. but he was there, in the background of a lot of my memories, and I still loved him, he wasn't just nothing to me

Verfremdungseffekt

LemonJuiceFromConcentrate
Lots of crossed posts there. I’m not saying she should raise the topic with her family and force a discussion, to be clear. I’m saying there’s nothing morally wrong about looking into it quietly.

But you say that 'family secrets cause a lot of pain' in what way will the OP relieving her curiosity about the death of a family member she barely knew and who died possibly by suicide -- when she was a small child, alleviate that pain?

Well, people who are guarding family secrets are often doing so because of perceived shame — whether about suicide or mental illness or illegitimacy or homosexuality or something else. It can frequently mean that they are inadvertently perpetuating a view of something as shameful that really needn’t be, trapped by worry about protecting the dead person somehow. The white lies and distress that hang around that kind of secret can often drive a wedge into relationships with living family members.

It’s understandable that it happens but it can be a huge help to just quietly let some light into things, so that younger relatives can understand and be aware without needing to confront anyone.

It isn’t only the directly bereaved person who experiences pain in situations like this, it often ripples out. Nobody should feel judged for wanting to know their own family stories.

Well, people who are guarding family secrets are often doing so because of perceived shame

The same is true of rape, child abuse etc. Would you decide to drag these issues out and shine a light on them so the person affected can be forced to rid themselves of any feelings of shame?

Or would you let them be the judge of what they want to expose and discuss?

@BingBongToTheMoon

No, no one will know or be told. Anyone can order certificates.

Can they? I seem to recall that the last time I ordered certificates I had to state the relationship to the person, this didn't use to be the case. Maybe I've remembered it incorrectly.

If one of my siblings died in their forties I would definitely ask what happened. I'm surprised your Mum didn't, or maybe she did and doesn't want to talk about it. If you want to take it further, order the death certificate. This is your family. You are not being morbid.

As others have said, you can find out by ordering a death certificate.

But you need to think about what you will do when you've found out. It sounds like you have no intention of talking to your nan about it, but you may want to talk to your mother or other relatives? The question is, would your mother really want to know? She could have found out herself by getting a death certificate herself, so possibly she actually would prefer to leave things as they are.

So before you go ahead, think about what you are going to do with the information.

BingBongToTheMoon
No, no one will know or be told.
Anyone can order certificates.
Can they? I seem to recall that the last time I ordered certificates I had to state the relationship to the person, this didn't use to be the case. Maybe I've remembered it incorrectly.

No you don't have to give any personal information when ordering a certificate. Birth, Marriage and death certificates are in the public domain. You can order them from the General Registry Office online. It's costs about £20 and they take 10 days to two weeks to arrive.

www.gov.uk/order-copy-birth-death-marriage-certificate

Death certificates are public record, anyone can order one. I’ve ordered a few when people have died young, mostly to check it’s not something generic I should be worrying about. Thankfully most have been pretty mundane, appendicitis deaths were scarily common in the past.

Go to the governments official GRO page to order, they are about £11. No one will know you’ve ordered it.

@TheYearOfSmallThings

Well, people who are guarding family secrets are often doing so because of perceived shame

The same is true of rape, child abuse etc. Would you decide to drag these issues out and shine a light on them so the person affected can be forced to rid themselves of any feelings of shame?

Or would you let them be the judge of what they want to expose and discuss?

Okay no, you are misrepresenting my point and you sound pretty aggressive. I would, as I clearly said in my earlier posts, not recommend pressuring anyone to discuss anything. I’m talking about it being fine for the OP to look into something and find out for herself.

Me: Of course it wouldn’t be okay to pressure anyone to talk about something painful, but it doesn’t sound like the op plans to do that.

Also me: I’m not saying she should raise the topic with her family and force a discussion, to be clear. I’m saying there’s nothing morally wrong about looking into it quietly.

*Genetic - honestly my phone is useless!

@Shellingbynight

As others have said, you can find out by ordering a death certificate.

But you need to think about what you will do when you've found out. It sounds like you have no intention of talking to your nan about it, but you may want to talk to your mother or other relatives? The question is, would your mother really want to know? She could have found out herself by getting a death certificate herself, so possibly she actually would prefer to leave things as they are.

So before you go ahead, think about what you are going to do with the information.

I probably wouldn't tell my mum whatever I've found, like you say, I think she may rather not know, I may tell my sisters, but only if it came up in conversation (we sometimes talk about our uncle and why he isn't a big topic of discussion in my family. My grandad (mums dad, nans husband) died before I was born, he was in his 60s, but I really feel like he was a part of my life because my mum and Nan talked about him so much growing up and still now, but it's not the same with my uncle and I don't really understand why.

To be fair, there is a contagion aspect to suicide. Maybe there’s an unspoken worry if ‘it’s out there’ it could make others feel it’s an option.
Suicide passes the pain on to those around them. It really can be too painful to talk about.

LemonJuiceFromConcentrate

I do not think I sound aggressive. I think you do not like the question I asked, and you are accusing me of being aggressive instead of honestly considering what it would feel like to have someone tangentially connected to real life events which have caused you pain deciding to investigate those events to satisfy their curiosity.

Someone having a sad life and a sad death doesn't mean that their life wasn't valid or worthwhile

But no one's suggested that. The OP's uncle owned his own life, even if it was troubled by addiction and MH problems, and it had the same 'worth' and 'validity' as anyone's.

The only reason not to pry would be if the OP were doing it for morbid reasons, or to gloat over the person's failures, which there is no suggestion they are doing.

The only reason the OP wants to know how he died is to satisfy her own curiosity, as far as I can judge. Though I agree with a previous poster that a death that was in any way sudden, unexpected, violent or 'unnatural' would have been reported to the coroner, who might have required a postmortem and inquest -- so if there was anything off about his death, her mother would surely have been aware, if the death couldn't simply be certified by a doctor in the manner of 'ordinary' deaths. I think a suicide always requires a pm.

@TheYearOfSmallThings

LemonJuiceFromConcentrate

I do not think I sound aggressive. I think you do not like the question I asked, and you are accusing me of being aggressive instead of honestly considering what it would feel like to have someone tangentially connected to real life events which have caused you pain deciding to investigate those events to satisfy their curiosity.

Tbf I don't think privately trying to find out the cause of death a family member is the same as privately investigating the rape or child abuse of a family member

But I think it's obvious enough why everyone talked to you about your grandfather, as I'm assuming he had an ordinarily contented/ problematic life, worked, married, had children etc, whereas your uncle was reclusive, lived with his mother till his early death, had significant MH problems and possibly addictions -- he was also your grandmother's child. She probably worried terribly about him when he was alive and suffered terribly at his early death, and his memory is deeply painful to her, however he died.

@Verfremdungseffekt

Someone having a sad life and a sad death doesn't mean that their life wasn't valid or worthwhile

But no one's suggested that. The OP's uncle owned his own life, even if it was troubled by addiction and MH problems, and it had the same 'worth' and 'validity' as anyone's.

The only reason not to pry would be if the OP were doing it for morbid reasons, or to gloat over the person's failures, which there is no suggestion they are doing.

The only reason the OP wants to know how he died is to satisfy her own curiosity, as far as I can judge. Though I agree with a previous poster that a death that was in any way sudden, unexpected, violent or 'unnatural' would have been reported to the coroner, who might have required a postmortem and inquest -- so if there was anything off about his death, her mother would surely have been aware, if the death couldn't simply be certified by a doctor in the manner of 'ordinary' deaths. I think a suicide always requires a pm.

Yeah tbh I don't know a lot about how deaths work with post Mortems or anything.. all I know is that the police went to my nans house late at night to inform her, she then came to our house because she didn't want to be alone and that's how my mum found out, I'm not sure how soon after that the funeral took place, I didn't go to it because parents thought I was too young, I don't know how much my mum knows as obviously she could be not telling the truth, but she's said she doesn't know really anything about his death and she hasn't asked Nan, and I do believe her tbh

@Verfremdungseffekt

But I think it's obvious enough why everyone talked to you about your grandfather, as I'm assuming he had an ordinarily contented/ problematic life, worked, married, had children etc, whereas your uncle was reclusive, lived with his mother till his early death, had significant MH problems and possibly addictions -- he was also your grandmother's child. She probably worried terribly about him when he was alive and suffered terribly at his early death, and his memory is deeply painful to her, however he died.

True I suppose, although grandad did die suddenly too, he did have an illness though. But yes I do agree that as he was my nans child it would be more painful for her

probably wouldn't tell my mum whatever I've found, like you say, I think she may rather not know, I may tell my sisters, but only if it came up in conversation

I think anything you find out should be kept entirely to yourself. If you start telling your siblings, you lose control of the information, and before you know it, your mum or your nan hear it, or at best, hear that you have it. Then things get complicated.