AIBU to think that team should be available at 9am for meetings?

[Overthebow]

I set up a weekly client meeting for my project team at 9am. I have had a decline from a key team member as it clashes with school drop of time. AIBU to think that 9am is a standard working time and my team should be available to attend important client calls at this time, unless they have a formal working hours agreement in place?

@notanothertakeaway If you read further on in the thread, you'll see that that has been covered.
Although the issue was that someone quoted teachers' longer holidays as being a perk of the job and preferable to other professions. Of course, they are a great bonus, BUT, to set the record, it is not 13 weeks paid.
And then someone thought it necessary to try to explain the concept of a salary spread over 12 months, as though that relevant in any way.
But this is off- topic. The expectations for the teaching profession are of course rigid. But no one could possibly turn up at the bell and expect to start their day at that point. Everyone starts way earlier, so this "I'm not turning up at 8.45 unpaid" stated on here by a few, is an attitude I find completely alien for a professional role.

Because you can't carry out your workload in your working hours? Or because you prefer to?

Because I don't have 'working hours'. My working hours are either until the job is done or the point where we need to leave it until the next day. In the construction sector we need to make use of the months where the weather is half decent as we lose a lot of days to rain and only end up working half days through a lot of the off season.

*Ah, so the reason women choose to have kids is primarily for altruistic reasons?

Tbh, a huge reduction in the population would likely benefit the planet immensely. I'd actually wager that right now not having kids is more likely to facilitate our continued survival than continuing to breed at the current rate.*

🙄 whatevs

Where I work, the only people getting flexibility are the parents. The rest of us are picking up whatever needs doing when the school runs are on.

I had this before in a bid/project management job and it was one of the main reasons why I left. I don't want the responsibility of having my own kids, so I certainly don't want the responsibility of picking up the slack formsomebody else's kids!

@wewereliars

Clearly the person who can't attend the meeting should throw their child in the general direction of the nursery, only slowing down slightly, so that they can be in the weekly meeting which is crucial to the survival of the planet.

Bunch of absolute tools on this thread.

WTF? If you are contracted to start work at 9, you start work at 9. Maybe you should drop your child off a bit earlier so you can start work on time? Or apply for flexible working so you start later? Rather than expecting the rest of the company to revolve around your schedule?

These threads always amuse me because it's like the people who work in more rigid work environments can't understand offices that can readily operate more flexibly and vice versa.

As @jagoda said, it's not a race to the bottom.

I work in a high paced tech environment & I'm not client facing. In my role, having a regular early or late meeting would absolutely be agreed with the team. In other roles the client may call the shots and you just have to suck it up.

Ultimately it boils down whether:

• The environment, role etc. allows for flexibility (obvs if you're a teacher with a room full of kids turning up for a 9am start, it doesn')
• The employee request is reasonable

Managers and employers in industries that can allow flexibility but try to retain a 'bums on seats / everyone in the office logged on a 9 on the dot' attitude can try to do so, but shouldn't be surprised if the same employees are reluctant to attend 'brown bag lunch meetings' or stay beyond their contracted hours, unless they're being incredibly well compensated for it.

'Entitled parent syndrome' is a real thing.

@KayKayWat

Where I work, the only people getting flexibility are the parents. The rest of us are picking up whatever needs doing when the school runs are on.

I had this before in a bid/project management job and it was one of the main reasons why I left. I don't want the responsibility of having my own kids, so I certainly don't want the responsibility of picking up the slack formsomebody else's kids!

You have to be super strict about it.

My team travel to see each other periodically, I have a commitment that clashes with the commitment of a parent with shared care. Last time we met up I made the compromise at personal cost. Its someone else's turn to compromise this time.

The great thing about a flexi, non traditional way of working is that it benefits ALL types of workers

parents
carers
people with hobbies and interests

every syndrome you can think of @KayKayWat

It is difficult to have these conversations as requirements across industries/job roles can be very different.

However it absolutely is reasonable to expect employees to be normally available for meetings during contracted hours.

I struggle with the OP's suggestion that there are no contracted hours, because why the fuck would anyone hire someone on that basis?

@sunglassesonthetable

The great thing about a flexi, non traditional way of working is that it benefits ALL types of workers

parents
carers
people with hobbies and interests

every syndrome you can think of @KayKayWat

People who sleep in once in a while accidently and go ARGGGGGH I'm going to be late for work

@KayKayWat

Where I work, the only people getting flexibility are the parents. The rest of us are picking up whatever needs doing when the school runs are on.

I had this before in a bid/project management job and it was one of the main reasons why I left. I don't want the responsibility of having my own kids, so I certainly don't want the responsibility of picking up the slack formsomebody else's kids!

I’ve been job hunting for a while - my work is quite niche so it’s difficult to find something that doesn’t require relocation. I’m sorry that this happened to you.

Nothing wrong with being entitled. In those sectors that can support flexibility, being 'entitled' and making these requests would encourage more of a change and we'd start to build a happier society.

@Eastie77Returns
"However can I ask: would you be upset if you had to cover someone because their elderly parent was ill?

The reason I ask is I sometimes feel there is a specific level of ire directed towards parents who have to leave work early/come in late because of childcare issues because “they chose to have children”.

If someone said their mother had dementia and had to leave early to relieve a home help would your attitude be “your mother is not that important to me?” I doubt it as that would be seen as heartless."

---

A tiny bit of understanding. Sorry because you seem like a genuinely nice person, but I find that quite insulting.
My mum DOES have moderate dementia. It is destroying and time consuming. I pay a lot of money so that her care does not interfere with my work. If she had a heart attack, I'd obviously leave work; and if someone's child had something serious happen, I'd then similarly expect them to do the same.
Strangely one person I worked with had 2 children and a mother with dementia. She was off quite often over her children; for her mother she only missed work twice, once for being with her mother when she died. And the other for her funeral. I covered for both of those with a huge sympatgy and willingness.
I'm not heartless. I have covered for births and accidents. But I also had to cover for childhood illnesses, chronic illnesses and non A&E accidents. I worked with many women in their 50s and 60s, the very group that is most likely to have elderly parents. I don't recall them taking time off to look after parents. The simple fact is that children cause more staff to miss work than elderly people. Is it different where you work?
I don't want anyone's child to be ill or have an accident, I don't want parents to be stressed, but I don't want to hoover up their stress to my detriment either.
As for children being future tax payers, I'm a present tax payer, a proportion of which goes to pay towards other people children. I'm paying towards national and local services, inc police, fire, education, nhs; and towards a variety of child benefits. I also pay towards the limited care provided for the elderly. I accept all this happily as I live as part of a society and I don't complain about it. I've paid my bit and more, so, honestly, the rebuke that I have to accommodate their school runs by covering for their parents is beyond cheeky.

What do you propose the employee does with their child so they can make the ridiculous timed meeting OP? Leave at the school gates? Drop the child in late? The person isn’t taking the piss, they’ve actually got a caring responsibility.

Not only is 9am a ridiculous time for a meeting you are also probably making that employee feel shit as well.

Appreciate the meeting is dependent on a different time zone but presumably by inviting the person who has a caring responsibility to the meeting they need to be there. If you continue with the meeting at that time not only will you potentially affect their well-being you will also get a reputation for being not understanding.

You need to find a work around so that you are demonstrating inclusivity.

@sunglassesonthetable

Yep, would also add:

• People with certain disabilities / hidden disabilities
• People who are just more productive earlier / later (most of us can adapt, but we probably also know some extreme larks or owls)
• Those of us in Scotland who might quite fancy a bit of daylight if we can take a longer lunch & make up the time elsewhere

Now I'm not suggesting a simple preference is a good reason to dodge a genuinely important meeting, but there are plenty of what would've been old school 'office / 9-5' jobs that aren't all about meetings. Who cares whether the person who's promised they'll deliver the code / testing / report by cop is sat at their desk doing it at 8am or 10am? The key thing is surely that it gets done.

"What do you propose the employee does with their child"

Hmm, let's see.... How about what those in the "real world" do? Organise some childcare?

Why do people think they're paying tax to cover other people's kids? You're contributing what YOU cost when YOU were a kid.

Is having a child now a protected characteristic to be covered by inclusivity?

[quote madisonbridges]@Eastie77Returns
"However can I ask: would you be upset if you had to cover someone because their elderly parent was ill?

The reason I ask is I sometimes feel there is a specific level of ire directed towards parents who have to leave work early/come in late because of childcare issues because “they chose to have children”.

If someone said their mother had dementia and had to leave early to relieve a home help would your attitude be “your mother is not that important to me?” I doubt it as that would be seen as heartless."

---

A tiny bit of understanding. Sorry because you seem like a genuinely nice person, but I find that quite insulting.
My mum DOES have moderate dementia. It is destroying and time consuming. I pay a lot of money so that her care does not interfere with my work. If she had a heart attack, I'd obviously leave work; and if someone's child had something serious happen, I'd then similarly expect them to do the same.
Strangely one person I worked with had 2 children and a mother with dementia. She was off quite often over her children; for her mother she only missed work twice, once for being with her mother when she died. And the other for her funeral. I covered for both of those with a huge sympatgy and willingness.
I'm not heartless. I have covered for births and accidents. But I also had to cover for childhood illnesses, chronic illnesses and non A&E accidents. I worked with many women in their 50s and 60s, the very group that is most likely to have elderly parents. I don't recall them taking time off to look after parents. The simple fact is that children cause more staff to miss work than elderly people. Is it different where you work?
I don't want anyone's child to be ill or have an accident, I don't want parents to be stressed, but I don't want to hoover up their stress to my detriment either.
As for children being future tax payers, I'm a present tax payer, a proportion of which goes to pay towards other people children. I'm paying towards national and local services, inc police, fire, education, nhs; and towards a variety of child benefits. I also pay towards the limited care provided for the elderly. I accept all this happily as I live as part of a society and I don't complain about it. I've paid my bit and more, so, honestly, the rebuke that I have to accommodate their school runs by covering for their parents is beyond cheeky.[/quote]
But any sort of caring commitment should be part of HR policy. No employee truly committed to work would ever expect anyone to pick up or cover their work.

In the original scenario it was asked if a 9am meeting was unreasonable because of school drop off - it is.

Surely as managers we should be striving to reach a better balance for our employees with their commitments outside of work?

Just because you’ve managed doesn’t mean the expectation that others should.

@Meh2020

What do you propose the employee does with their child so they can make the ridiculous timed meeting OP? Leave at the school gates? Drop the child in late? The person isn’t taking the piss, they’ve actually got a caring responsibility.

Not only is 9am a ridiculous time for a meeting you are also probably making that employee feel shit as well.

Appreciate the meeting is dependent on a different time zone but presumably by inviting the person who has a caring responsibility to the meeting they need to be there. If you continue with the meeting at that time not only will you potentially affect their well-being you will also get a reputation for being not understanding.

You need to find a work around so that you are demonstrating inclusivity.

In what way is 9am a 'ridiculous' time for a meeting?

Economists wondering why the U.K. has low / slow growth in productivity need only consult this thread as to the reason why

Ditto the next time someone starts a thread plaintively asking why some people earn higher salaries. Point them in the direction of this thread - tl;dr - acting as if your human rights have been infringed because someone has asked you to jump on the phone at 9am is unlikely to be the path to success. It’s not about requiring buns on seats at a certain time, it’s about expecting a degree of responsibility to be coupled with flexibility. Not getting all puffed up because you haven’t had time to make a brew (ugh) or faff about in the morning.

Bums on seats, not buns. Some of the posters on this thread might make more of an effort to get into work if there were buns on seats at 9am every morning.

'Jump on the phone' 🤡

Because a key member of the meeting cannot make it - just start the meeting a little later