AIBU to think that team should be available at 9am for meetings?

[Overthebow]

I set up a weekly client meeting for my project team at 9am. I have had a decline from a key team member as it clashes with school drop of time. AIBU to think that 9am is a standard working time and my team should be available to attend important client calls at this time, unless they have a formal working hours agreement in place?

Btw I think the days of bosses having the right to demand certain hours are fading

It’s going to be all about performance focused flexible work soon and I’m glad

@blueeyedgirl21 I hope so. At the moment where I work it's split the workforce into 2 tiers. The parents get performance-focused flexible work and the non-parents only get it if there's no need for anyone to be present during certain hours, or to complete certain tasks. It's definitely causing resentment.

As a one off this would be OK, but there is obviously an issue for this person making this time every week, Your comments about difficulties working round part time staff etc make you come across as someone who thinks work is number one priority for everyone, well it isn’t children don’t just disappear because someone wants a call. Logging on for a video call from starting up your computer etc will prob take 10 min so you are expecting people to actually start at 8:50. This might not be possible for this person ie working outside normal hours. I would suggest moving the call to 9:10 as the person could then start at 9 or alternatively ask someone who can make he call

*It’s all what your life is set up for. My job is flexible. I’ve never had a job as an adult that expected me at my desk at a particular time day after day. If I were a surgeon it would be different. I would need to show up on an a schedule each day.

The trade off is that sometimes I have to work well outside my normal hours or days because that is just what needs to happen. There is no discussion with a line manager or core hours. We all just act like adults and respect each other’s time and ability to manage our schedules.*

And me. As above.

It's fascinating to see all the different working cultures on here.

I've always worked more or less from home, going in for meetings, and am very productive because of it. Having kids to work around made me MORE productive actually, not less.

I feel very grateful not work in some of these sectors or offices that have been described on here.

I understand working with different time zones makes a huge difference. But no I don't think 15 mins does. Other than as a point of principle or flexing authority. And tbh if you're there, it's pretty crap.

I try to get the best out of my team in other ways.

We don't all need to follow the working model of an 80s office worker, with a wife at home.

A lot of you seem to work in places where you feel you can dictate your own hours! I work in professional services, and believe me if a client / senior partner wants a call at 9am then unless your official start time is 9.30am, you're expected to be there.

'Dave doesn't start until 9.30' would have been taken into account when planning the meeting in the first place, but 'Dave has declined the meeting because he needs to drop his kids to school so won't be available until about 9.15, so we'll have to rearrange' would go down like a lead balloon.

Particularly where Dave may be the most junior person on a call, and the other 5 significantly more senior people / those in other time zones can only make a 9am call as their diaries are back to back the rest of the day!

@JassyRadlett

Certainly highly skilled staff are better able to call the shots than others, but often the difficulty is that folk think they're irreplaceable ... and often it's just not so

For many - currently probably the majority- of sectors they are significantly more difficult to replace than they were three years ago.

It’s something more employers are going to have to adapt to, globally. For the first time in a long time, employees will have an increased ability to call the shots about the terms they will and won’t accept. It’s already visible, and clear that many are not just chasing higher salaries but more favourable conditions.

This exactly, since 2008 lots of large employers have run the mantra of “be grateful you have a job” and used it as an excuse to pile more and more pressure on people. I think lots have either left high pressure roles, considering doing so or otherwise looking to offload some of the pressure. In my profession we are fighting more and more over candidates -it’s an employees market, in a profession where presenteeism was key flexi working is now demanded. People are getting sick and tired of running themselves into the ground. Employers might need to get used to the fact people won’t be working at the same levels of productivity as the last 15 years, as that productivity was often a result of fear and unhealthy working practices.

But surely if Dave drops his kids at school in the morning and isn’t available until 9:15, then he doesn’t actually start work until 9:15.

A lot of you seem to work in places where you feel you can dictate your own hours!

There are certain kinds of meetings that come from the top and yes I would be there regardless.

But a weekly team project type meeting that OP describes?

Move it 15 mins.

@sunglassesonthetable

A lot of you seem to work in places where you feel you can dictate your own hours!

There are certain kinds of meetings that come from the top and yes I would be there regardless.

But a weekly team project type meeting that OP describes?

Move it 15 mins.

Yes. I work in legal services and we pretty much set our hours. I like to start early so my boss wouldn't pair me with a client who wanted regular meetings at 7pm. Likewise, if they know Dave isn't available until 9.15 because he drops his DC to school, he wouldn't be expected to attend a meeting at 9am.

Meetings from the top, I think everyone would do their best, but if Dave emailed Big Cheese and said "Sorry, I have tried an am unable to make alternative arrangements, I will catch up with X after the meeting to take action points" that would be acceptable.

Some of you seem to work in really old fashioned rigid workplace cultures. I think they are on the way out. Unemployment levels are very low at the moment.

What several posters appear to have missed is that OP is not the employer in her scenario. She is another employee and has to suck up the parameters around workplace hours that her employer has put in place. They have probably done it so they can attract the best quality staff - which doesn't always mean those who can sit at their desks from 9 - 5.

@Lndnmummy

I would be really annoyed at the "small change" of pushing the meeting by 15-30 minutes becuase my diary is back to back so it would have a knock off effect on my other meetings (not to forget my colleagues also attending those meetings). And I say that as someone with two young children requiring pick up and drop off.

How do you get any work done if you're just in meetings all day every day?

@DriftingBlue I think the point is Dave always used to make it to the office by his contractual start time of 9am (and presumably had a way to get his kids to school then!). But since the pandemic, Dave is now WFH, and has changed his arrangements so that he takes the kids to school, and has sort of decided his own start time of 9.15 as a result, whereas his employer will still be working on the basis his start time is 9am as per his contract.

Which is probably fine most of the time, but if a meeting is then arranged for 9am because that's what time everyone is supposed to be in work, and it suits everyone else, it's not really on for Dave to expect it to be rearranged around a random time he's decided to start work each day! It's a bit like me saying I won't ever attend any meetings between 1 and 2 because I need to walk the dog / go to a gym class - it just wouldn't be acceptable.

If I was called to a 9 am meeting, I would make sure I was there. I don't think I would decline because of the school run (of which I am responsible for). It is unprofessional.

I think the point is Dave always used to make it to the office by his contractual start time of 9am (and presumably had a way to get his kids to school then!). But since the pandemic, Dave is now WFH, and has changed his arrangements so that he takes the kids to school, and has sort of decided his own start time of 9.15 as a result, whereas his employer will still be working on the basis his start time is 9am as per his contract.

Hmmm you know lots has changed since the pandemic.

Like lots.

There could be some many valid reasons that is affecting Dave's previous ability to get the kids to school.

I can't be bothered to list them but the overall impression I'm getting is that you think Dave is a bit of a piss taker who 'dictates' his own hours.

Not necessarily a valuable employee who has children as well. And whilst that attitude remains there will always be this conflict.

A lot of you seem to work in places where you feel you can dictate your own hours!

But some of us can. Some of us can dictate it the majority of the time.

I can dictate when and where I work. I have passed that opportunity to my team. Apart from 1 day per month each where they have to work a certain time to ensure someone is available 8am-5pm. I need someone available between those times. Doesn't need to be all or most

Some do 7-3. Some do 12-8. Some split it.

I can mange their work load, see they have been logged on. I could even see their key strokes if I cared to. I don't.

Its really not hard arranging meetings with people. If people decline because they can't be available then, I will try and change it or send them the minutes/recording.

There's very few meetings where it imperative one person is there. I mean what happens to these weekly meetings if you are on annual leave. Someone else does them.

[quote senorafridgidaire]@DriftingBlue I think the point is Dave always used to make it to the office by his contractual start time of 9am (and presumably had a way to get his kids to school then!). But since the pandemic, Dave is now WFH, and has changed his arrangements so that he takes the kids to school, and has sort of decided his own start time of 9.15 as a result, whereas his employer will still be working on the basis his start time is 9am as per his contract.

Which is probably fine most of the time, but if a meeting is then arranged for 9am because that's what time everyone is supposed to be in work, and it suits everyone else, it's not really on for Dave to expect it to be rearranged around a random time he's decided to start work each day! It's a bit like me saying I won't ever attend any meetings between 1 and 2 because I need to walk the dog / go to a gym class - it just wouldn't be acceptable.[/quote]
But OP has stated that they do not have contracted hours which state they have to start at 9am.
Dave may have started at 9.30 the whole of his working life for all we know...

Also, he may have WFH the whole of his working life. My DB has WFH for about 15 years.

What several posters appear to have missed is that OP is not the employer in her scenario. She is another employee and has to suck up the parameters around workplace hours that her employer has put in place.

I can't imagine anyone teacher, NHS workers, carer or any of the other jobs that dont have much flexibility would change their shift because one of their colleagues tells them they should.

Imagine if you are a teacher that works 4 days and have every Friday off and another teacher just decided you needed to work Friday. You would just say 'yeah that's fine'. Really?

[quote senorafridgidaire]@DriftingBlue I think the point is Dave always used to make it to the office by his contractual start time of 9am (and presumably had a way to get his kids to school then!). But since the pandemic, Dave is now WFH, and has changed his arrangements so that he takes the kids to school, and has sort of decided his own start time of 9.15 as a result, whereas his employer will still be working on the basis his start time is 9am as per his contract.

Which is probably fine most of the time, but if a meeting is then arranged for 9am because that's what time everyone is supposed to be in work, and it suits everyone else, it's not really on for Dave to expect it to be rearranged around a random time he's decided to start work each day! It's a bit like me saying I won't ever attend any meetings between 1 and 2 because I need to walk the dog / go to a gym class - it just wouldn't be acceptable.[/quote]
In this instance, we don't actually know if the Dave, ie OPs colleague, used to always make it for 9am or not. Much less what's in his contract.

In my old job, I made an arrangement with my boss that I would come in and leave an hour early because I car-shared with another person. This arrangement actually suited my boss as he always came into work an hour early, so we could get started early together.

In my current job, hours are more fixed, but my boss knows I am a lone parent, so I have to finish on time to pick the kids up. It can't be helped. If I don't pick the kids up, then there is no one else to do it and I'm screwed.

If the OP's colleague has some kind of understanding like this with her employer, then I understand why she can't rearrange things to attend the weekly meeting. There may genuinely be no alternative for her.

@Nyxs

Your approach sounds very sensible and much like my own.

@sunglassesonthetable I don't think anything in particular about Dave. I'd love to work somewhere where you could decline a 9am meeting even though your contract says you start at 9 (and tbh I've lost the thread about what OP's workplace does and doesn't allow!).

I'm just saying how it would work where I work - if it was a fairly informal team meeting then it wouldn't be an issue, but I have a lot of meetings that are arranged by / around the diaries of more senior people, and there would be an expectation that 9am attendance isn't optional unless you have some kind of unusual commitment that day that you can't move, or your start time is later in the day. Quite often 8am attendance isn't optional! I can't imagine that's unusual in certain environments. We do have a lot of flexibility, but it's sort of more formal I guess, in my imaginary Dave scenario, it would have been agreed with Dave that his start time is 9.15, and then everyone would know about it and plan around it. Rather than everyone thinking Dave starts at 9, and then him declining the meeting.

A lot of you seem to work in places where you feel you can dictate your own hours!

Not 'dictate', but certainly negotiate, e.g. 8.30-4.30 one day, 9.30-5.30 the next. So long as the work gets done. But then, 9am meetings aren't the done thing where I work anyway - it's 9.30am earliest.

@Overthebow In admit I haven’t read every page of this thread but I did scan to look for your replies. Have you spoken to your colleague since they declined the meeting? I have to arrange similar meetings with my global client base and pull in some of my colleagues at crappy times in order to meet multiple times zones. Often a quick call to say “Hey- I know this is a pain for you because of the school drop off. Is there any way around it just for this call (be it a one off or weekly recurring”, can help. At least your colleague feels you have taken into them into consideration. If they say no, and there are no contracted working hours, then there’s not much that can be done. Maybe ask your company to put in place flexible working with core hours. We did this a couple of years ago and it works really well.

The actual time of the meeting is irrelevant.
If you had core hours and employee was not arriving in time for them they WBU.
As it seems you do not have core hours or any sort of flexible working policy that defines when staff should be working and it is left up to interpretation they are not being unreasonable to have a different interpretation to yours, and to not work when you feel they should be.

That is the whole point of job descriptions, policies, etc. To clarify things so everyone knows what is expected of them.

... there seems to be a strong attitude that only what workers want has any merit and companies expectation of obtaining business by giving a good service is an unreasonable demand of its employees

'Twas ever thus on MN, but maybe this partly explains why British service is pereceived to be awful and gettong worse?

Like so much else it's about balance; yes, there are certainly dinosaurs who think only "bums on seats" matter, but equally there are those who find just being expected to turn up and do the job they're paid for an imposition

@Goldenbear

Grenlei, maybe some people have raised their standards and aren't willing to sacrifice so much of their time to work as they used to. In the 1980's, 90's I didn't see my Dad in the evenings except at the weekends as he was always in some office working the long hours, time he could have had with his children, something he really regrets now as a 70 year old man! Wondering what the point was actually. Where is the joy in life when it is just about work and a competition to work the longest hours possible in a day! I love meeting my youngest from primary school, walking home with her and chatting, I would say it is one of the loveliest parts of my day. It helps that it is a nice walk. I love speaking with my eldest about his day. Time with my DC is really valuable.

Oh how touching. Have you formally applied for flexible hours then to allow you to only work 9.30-2.30 or are you the sort of slacker who expects those without children (or who pay for appropriate childcare/ make arrangements for their children during working hours) to take your share of calls/ cover your work as well as their own?

The sense of entitlement being displayed is just ridiculous.

A significant percentage of roles in areas like finance, banking, law just to name a few won't exist in a few years due to automation/ tech advancement; many posters on this thread are on the right track to ensure they won't be among the ones whose services are retained.