AIBU to think that team should be available at 9am for meetings?

[Overthebow]

I set up a weekly client meeting for my project team at 9am. I have had a decline from a key team member as it clashes with school drop of time. AIBU to think that 9am is a standard working time and my team should be available to attend important client calls at this time, unless they have a formal working hours agreement in place?

This thread is amazing. It really does reveal why a lot of services are so much worse post Covid!

@userg5647

How did this all work pre-Covid? Was everyone taking children to school then going to the office? I’m bemused by so many people thinking work revolves around school hours, especially when they are so short for the young pupils.

I started work at 9.30, when I accepted the job I did so on the understanding I was doing school drop off. I made it clear if they wanted me they needed to accept I had other responsibilities. Now I WFH I'm at my desk by 9. I don't know why people are so hateful of working parents paving the way for more flexible working. Meetings do not HAVE to happen at 9, schools start at 9 so why not encourage workplaces (that can) to fit around this better, many households have 2 working parents, why shouldnt the work place adapt to make it easier for parents? It's better for them, for the kids and ultimately for the employer if everyone is happier with what they're managing. It's extremely backward to be so hellbent on "the old ways". It's 2021, we can manage work and family better now, no need for out of date perceptions "just because".

The thing is you can't have it all ways . We have more international meetings online now which is a great thing for all sorts of reasons but arranging meetings with people in different time zones whole everyone insists on only working their core hours is impossible. The alternative is to travel to meet each other instead . Let me think which do I in terms of the effect bit has on my family life ? Travel to another country for a couple of days or arrange childcare for an hour so I can be in a meeting at 9am. Not s hard choice for me anyway

When I used to wort for a company with both Japanese clients and US colleagues we often had ( in those days telephone conference ) meetings at very difficult times . We kept the meetings infrequent and changed the times regularly so that different teams had different levels of disruption to their working day but we still had to attend meetings occasionally at unusual times otherwise we would never have been able to discuss anything

I don't know why people are so hateful of working parents paving the way for more flexible working. Meetings do not HAVE to happen at 9, schools start at 9 so why not encourage workplaces (that can) to fit around this better, many households have 2 working parents, why shouldnt the work place adapt to make it easier for parents? It's better for them, for the kids and ultimately for the employer if everyone is happier with what they're managing. It's extremely backward to be so hellbent on "the old ways". It's 2021, we can manage work and family better now, no need for out of date perceptions "just because".

100% this.
The last 18 months has demonstrated to employers that people can work flexibly and effectively.
For lots of people their childcare provision has changed or been reduced making it more challenging for working parents.
Things change and working practices should adapt.

[quote VaguelyInteresting]@Pottedpalm

In my industry very common to do school drop off before starting. I’d say 75% of (male and female, before anyone veers off on gender role lines) parents in my office do and start at 9.30. At all levels of seniority.

Also wraparound care provision has been shit since covid and caused huge issues for parents.[/quote]
What happens at school pick up time? This is anything from 3pm for young children , who are presumably the ones needing drop off.

Yanbu. What the client wants, the client gets (within reason, which this is).

I was going to say that you’re being a dick and why not schedule it at 9:15 instead. However, now I’ve read your updates I think you are right.

You say you are all well paid, well their kids should be in breakfast club. Plus most schools start at 8:30-8:45 so there’s absolutely no reason why they can’t rush home, go to a cafe or just find a bench to sit on.

Not unreasonable at all given that it is not possible to reschedule it. She needs to make alternative arrangements to get her kid to school.

@bookish83

Time to warm up... WFH jokes surely Hilarious. Agree with the teacher commenting, some of us are straight in at 8am. Imagine your horror if the nurse/doctor/NHS staff looking after you said 'oh I can't give you these medications, I need time to warm up after logging on and dropping kids off at school' and strolling in at 9:20!

I don’t understand this sort of comment. Why should people who don’t do this sort of job work as though they do? My teacher husband isn’t some sort of hero for starting at 8am, it’s just a condition of his job. I normally start at 8.30 but on one day I can’t start until 9am because of the childcare in place and because my job can accommodate that.

@bumblingbovine49 of course it's going to depend on the employer, but those that CAN be flexible should, and shouldn't remain static just because others are more rigid.

There is no breakfast club at my sons school. There is no phone signal directly outside his school. I could make a 9am meeting because I have a husband who could drop off but it's perfectly possible that this person doesn't.

It depends really on what arrangements are in place since COVID. Working from home has meant that it doesn’t make sense to have breakfast club in place where they may have done with a commute. Can she make 9.05? Can’t you flex just a tiny bit to help?

I love these parallel universe threads.

At the end of the day, those who work in good environments will carry on with the flexible working progress. Some of these pay well and have flexible working, some are not highly paid but the flexible working is a draw.

There are other industries that treat employees like absolute shit in terms of hours, but reward them in other ways e.g. pay.

And then there are industries that offer poor pay AND poor working conditions, and they are staffed with people who either have no alternative or are happy to put up with it.

Bloody hell, glad I don’t work in your team. Either you start a bit later or you do your meetings without the team member. Let them drop their kids off at school, that’s more important than whatever work you’re involved in.

@Dguu6u

Bloody hell, glad I don’t work in your team. Either you start a bit later or you do your meetings without the team member. Let them drop their kids off at school, that’s more important than whatever work you’re involved in.

Jesus, what have I just read?

You say you are all well paid, well their kids should be in breakfast club. Plus most schools start at 8:30-8:45 so there’s absolutely no reason why they can’t rush home, go to a cafe or just find a bench to sit on.

😂 Work zoom from a park bench. Brilliant.

I’m sorry that people are calling you nasty names, OP. I work with people on my project that are in China and the US, so 07:30 and 17:30 meetings are common, and we have to be flexible. That having been said, wouldn’t it be ok to put back your meeting for your key worker? Flexibility does work both ways and maybe the rest of the team might appreciate at least 30 minutes to prepare for your meeting (ie. if they received important information by eMail overnight that might be relevant to your project?)

If the client wants 09:00 once a week & cannot be moved to a slightly later time, then so be it. Are they a small company or solo practitioner?
Maybe they do not have need of flexible start times so they are not aware of current flexi practices? By the same token in my pp, is a 09:00 start something they really want at the risk of incomplete team presence or is it their default request?

The bottom line for each employee is what is written in the contract of employment. When push comes to shove, that is what the employer defaults to, so flexi-working is an efficiency but may not be contractual.

24 hour ‘chasing the sun’ working & good use of cutting edge mobile comms broke the mould for ‘bums on seats’ meetings in the office many years ago. The passage of time & pressures of Covid has brought mass ‘flexi’ mainstream.

Bear in mind that a business or organisation can rescind ‘flexi’ unless it is in the formal employment contract. There are some exceptions to this where employees have formal reasonable adjustments or agreements in place.

“The OP has explained that the client has set the time. Y’know, the client who can take their business elsewhere if they choose because you are pissing about taking your child to school.”

Imagine a world in which you could say to the client, “9.15 works better for us, is that doable?”
You know, one where you have a working relationship based on mutual respect, rather than one where you run around and do everything they want without questioning it. Presumably there’s a lot more to what you do for them than just …turning up on time?

@hotmeatymilk

when I accepted the job I did so on the understanding I was doing school drop off. I made it clear if they wanted me they needed to accept I had other responsibilities. Amen to this and all of *@userg5647*’s post. I’ve just accepted a permanent role after a contract post at the same company – it’s WFH and impossible to do that once DD is home from nursery even with partner looking after her. I’ve made clear that I have a hard stop finish and won’t be picking up work after she goes to bed. But also that my flexible needs will change as she does – nursery hours being different to school hours. No one batted an eye, they hired me for my work abilities, not my “butt on chair at arbitrary time” abilities.

Does this person really need to be in the meeting? 90% of meetings should be emails anyway.

Astounding arrogance from someone in the privileged position of being able to call the shots with an employer they have already proved themselves to via a contract. The vast majority of employees cannot hold their employers over a barrel with this kind of ‘big talk’ - people need jobs and if they don’t work their hours they will find themselves out on their ears. This thread is whipping people up into a stir thinking they and their domestic arrangements are far more important than their responsibility to their employer. I’m all for flexible working policies, I work in a very flexible and family friendly company. But there’s flexibility and there’s being an arrogant and entitled arsehole taking the piss.

I’m ready and logged in by 9am (WFH) but still prefer not to have 9am meetings. I like to deal with my inbox first before I get into my work proper. Pre COVID in the office I didn’t start until 9.30 due to traffic so a 9am meeting would have been an absolute no then. It’s not about not being ready to work at 9am for some people but starting the day with a meeting is never going to be anyone’s favourite way to start the day!

Unless the person is critical to the meeting can’t they just dial in later or miss it and be caught up after?

Imagine a world in which you could say to the client, “9.15 works better for us, is that doable?”

Maybe that's fine and maybe it isn't.

Entirely depends on the client, who can absolutely take their business elsewhere if they aren't getting the kind of service they want from the OP's business.

Either way, you've still no basis at all for assuming there were 9am office meetings attended in person by people no problem pre wfh era.

if you say so.

As the client set the meeting time and you are running an international team

YANBU

Yes, we all offer flexibility around core hours (formally defined or not) but employees are expected to put in the extra effort when needed.

Flexibility is a two way street.

I used to run a team across several time zones and couldn’t care less what hours people were working so long as they got their work done.

However, when occasion demanded it, and with notice, I would absolutely expect my team to work early or late.

We we’re coming in at 7 for 3 hour meetings so the Shanghai team weren’t in their pjs. West coast teams in at crack of dawn for meetings with European teams etc. etc. 9 am isn’t exactly extreme.

I would say though, if a very hardworking team member who normally would put themselves out if needed, really was struggling (for childcare or some other genuine reason) , I would make allowances (let them come later, if not critical to first 20 min).

I’m sounds like your back is up

and I wonder if this team member has been taking the piss or thinks the rules don’t apply to them whilst everyone else follows a process (making formal request to flex working hours and has this contracted)??

bookish83
”Time to warm up... WFH jokes surely grin
Hilarious. Agree with the teacher commenting, some of us are straight in at 8am. Imagine your horror if the nurse/doctor/NHS staff looking after you said 'oh I can't give you these medications, I need time to warm up after logging on and dropping kids off at school' and strolling in at 9:20!”

RichTeaRichTea
”I don’t understand this sort of comment. Why should people who don’t do this sort of job work as though they do? My teacher husband isn’t some sort of hero for starting at 8am, it’s just a condition of his job. I normally start at 8.30 but on one day I can’t start until 9am because of the childcare in place and because my job can accommodate that.”

Agree with @RichTeaRichTea. Just because you @bookish83 need to start at a specific time, doesn’t mean everyone else should. How do you propose kids get dropped off or picked up? Should they go by themselves or perhaps only one parent should be allowed to work? Sounds like you have a bit of job envy.

@Fetarabbit

Either way, you've still no basis at all for assuming there were 9am office meetings attended in person by people no problem pre wfh era.

if you say so.

It would be true even if I hadn't said so. You were being very silly.