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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not realise people can steal houses?

163 replies

radiatorsz · 02/11/2021 07:39

Read this story

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-essex-59069662.amp

wtf!!!

How can this happen and how is it a civil matter? How can you stop this happening?

OP posts:
Maray1967 · 02/11/2021 08:21

Thank you to OP for raising this and to the PP for posting the land registry link. I’d never heard of this and have just signed up to check on my house. It took only a few minutes to sign up.

Hoppinggreen · 02/11/2021 08:22

I heard about this on the radio a couple of weeks ago.
Really shocking and failures by The DVLA, Solicitors and The Police

Lemonsyellow · 02/11/2021 08:24

The ID provided wasn’t fake, as such. The DVLA issued a duplicate real licence to the fraudster, who then opened a bank account using that ID. He had done it months before the house transaction.

Korbah · 02/11/2021 08:24

the way it works is once their name is on land registry they are guaranteed to get to keep the property
This is the part I find unbelievable. The house has been stolen and the person who received the stolen goods is apparently allowed to keep it! It’s insane and the government needs to look at this state of affairs because it’s worrying. Stolen goods should always be returned to the original owner!

Hoppinggreen · 02/11/2021 08:24

But the photo was completely different in terms of both age and ethnicity to the original licence.

TokyoDreaming · 02/11/2021 08:25

I honestly think that the buyer was involved in the process.

Korbah · 02/11/2021 08:30

I honestly think that the buyer was involved in the process
There’s definitely something very dodgy. Who pays £131k for a house worth about £265k, not auctioned or advertised on Rightmove, rushed through and completed quickly, and doesn’t realise something isn’t right?

radiatorsz · 02/11/2021 08:30

@godmum56 that's insane

OP posts:
DGRossetti · 02/11/2021 08:32

@rslsys

You can set up an alert with the Land Registry which will email you when anyone conducts a search on your property. It also sends you a six monthly summary of any searches.
Of course fraudsters will just target the people who won't or can't sign up for such alerts.
radiatorsz · 02/11/2021 08:33

the way it works is once their name is on land registry they are guaranteed to get to keep the property
This is the part I find unbelievable.

i know!

OP posts:
radiatorsz · 02/11/2021 08:34

@DGRossetti I didn't know about that service

OP posts:
godmum56 · 02/11/2021 08:34

[quote radiatorsz]@godmum56 that's insane[/quote]
yes, but it happened...and SIX years ago. I wonder how many cases don't make the papers?

radiatorsz · 02/11/2021 08:34

I honestly think that the buyer was involved in the process

definitely

OP posts:
radiatorsz · 02/11/2021 08:35

@godmum56 there are so many rental properties & empty properties that there must be lots.

OP posts:
Wellydumpling · 02/11/2021 08:40

There are also a number of ‘restrictions’ which you can apply to be placed on the register of your property- which then require additional evidence/certificates to be produced for any transaction to take place. That and always keep your contact address up to date!

LakieLady · 02/11/2021 08:47

@Lemonsyellow

The ID provided wasn’t fake, as such. The DVLA issued a duplicate real licence to the fraudster, who then opened a bank account using that ID. He had done it months before the house transaction.
Last time I renewed my licence (2015), I had to get a biometric one, and produce my expired one plus a second form of photo ID at the post office where the biometric picture was taken.

I'm amazed that someone can just get a duplicate licence, presumably sent to a different address from the one DVLA had recorded as the property owner's address.

I think a fake licence is more likely.

DGRossetti · 02/11/2021 08:47

[quote radiatorsz]@DGRossetti I didn't know about that service[/quote]
That was my point. Motivated fraudsters will just target people who don't know about it, or can't sign up for it.

More worrying is the suggestion that the Land Registry is somehow a reflection of the truth, Because that points to a Brazil-esque B/Tuttle situation where "The computer says no."

radiatorsz · 02/11/2021 08:51

@Wellydumpling how do you do this?

OP posts:
LakieLady · 02/11/2021 08:51

I just hope the man had legal cover on his house insurance. I suspect there will be someone to sue when this is all unravelled.

Lemonsyellow · 02/11/2021 08:53

@LakieLady

I listened to the original radio programme on this. It wasn’t a fake licence. It wasn’t a renewed licence. It was a real duplicate licence. The DVLA even contacted the original owner saying there had been a request for a duplicate licence and was that right. The original owner said no and the DVLA said it must be attempted fraud and they wouldn’t authorise the duplicate licence. But then they issued it anyway.

AshGirl · 02/11/2021 08:54

I work in the property sector and this is more common than you think. The fraudsters are very organised and sophisticated. Land Registry have put a lot of measures in place to try to combat frauds but if you have a property which is empty or let out, is mortgage free and relatively valuable you should absolutely sign up for the Land Registry alerts as soon as possible.

radiatorsz · 02/11/2021 08:58

The original owner said no and the DVLA said it must be attempted fraud and they wouldn’t authorise the duplicate licence. But then they issued it anyway.

🤦🏻‍♀️

OP posts:
JohnRokesmith · 02/11/2021 09:02

[quote sausageflowers]@Bagamoyo1 I sold a house last year and I had to turn up in person in the middle of lockdown to my solicitors to prove it was me selling it. I actually suspect this is fully organised crime all around because the person buying it bought it at such a low price and the way it works is once their name is on land registry they are guaranteed to get to keep the property. [/quote]
That's not correct. Ownership is based, to a large degree, upon occupation. In this instance, as the house was unoccupied at the time of the fraud being identified it is likely to be returned to the original owner. Should the house have been occupied, the purchasers would have retained the property, unless they were implicated some way in the fraud. However, in either instance, the Land Registry, as guarantor of title, would indemnify both parties against loss. If the property is returned to the original owner, the purchaser would be reimbursed the purchase price by the Land Registry, whilst if the purchaser kept the property, the original owner would be reimbursed the market price.

(You may note that this does provide an incentive for the Land Registry to adjudicate that the property should be returned to the original owner. Such considerations are not supposed to be taken into account.)

There are, of course, a number of other legal considerations, but that's a broad summary of how ownership would be decided. Note that the Land Registry wouldn't cover the owner's possessions. In terms of discussion of this being a criminal or civil matter, it is wholly and entirely a criminal matter. I would suggest that, in such cases, the purchasers are often complicit, though this would be hard to prove. Solicitors, too, are sometimes complicit, and the SRA would do well to investigate any such cases. You may note that a few solicitors have been struck off in the past in relation to land fraud cases.

LakieLady · 02/11/2021 09:02

[quote Lemonsyellow]@LakieLady

I listened to the original radio programme on this. It wasn’t a fake licence. It wasn’t a renewed licence. It was a real duplicate licence. The DVLA even contacted the original owner saying there had been a request for a duplicate licence and was that right. The original owner said no and the DVLA said it must be attempted fraud and they wouldn’t authorise the duplicate licence. But then they issued it anyway.[/quote]
Wow, that's appalling.

They'll be added to the list of people/organisations to sue then!

In some ways, I'm surprised this hasn't happened in the past, when ID checks weren't a thing. I've lived in the same house for 29 years, and when I bought it, I didn't have to prove much to anyone. Because I was getting the mortgage from the bank that had my current account, I didn't even have to prove my income, they already knew it. I never even met the solicitor who did the conveyancing for the sale of my previous house and this purchase, it was all done by post (well, DX, as I worked in the legal dept at the council at the time).

OVienna · 02/11/2021 09:03

I have just done it. But my question is: What will the searches actually tell you? Just that the property was searched for or also WHO did it? And then what can you do next, realistically?

There could, in principle, be a lot of reasons why someone would search in our area, notably boundaries, as it was carved up by a local land owner whose own conveyancer...well, let's just hope he's long retired.

I'll have a look into what restrictions can be placed on a property.

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