Just relax, lower your standards....

[PippyLongmocking]

...live in a shit hole.

Why do untidy people get to languish in their own filth and squalor, while tidy people get the choices of;

1. Clean and tidy for them.
2. Nag, whine, beg, plead, create whiteboards, starcharts, threaten divorce.
3. 'Lower your standards'. In other words live in a crap hole.

Why does no bugger say 'increase your standards' or 'compromise you piggy, pay for a cleaner'?

Aibu to think the messiest laziest member of the household has a better deal.
They get to do jack shit while proclaiming 'I just don't see mess' 'it doesn't bother me'.

My standards are now so low that it's unrecognisable what they are.

If this is genuinely making you really unhappy and he's unwilling to see that and try to make the marriage work then maybe you would be better off single. Maybe your frustration over the state of the house is linked to other problems.

Teach your sons to put up after themselves and do basic cleaning, cooking, and laundry. Their future partners will thank you. I have two gay male friends whose house smells so bad I can’t sit down in there. They live like bears with furniture, beer, and frozen food.

Try to remember that the only person made happy by your cleaning is you. He's not intentionally forcing you to do all the work - he genuinely doesn't care if you do it or not.

That's only true to a point. He might not care whether the bathroom is cleaned once a week or once a month but he'd care if it was not cleaned for a year. Lazy people people with low standards and no self discipline don't prefer dirty, chaotic homes. They just prefer them somewhat in comparison to precious time spent cleaning and tidying, when they could be doing something else, or nothing. It's like people who hate cooking - most of them accept that at some point some basic level of cooking needs to be done in order for them to eat. They do it as seldom as possible but are usually quite delighted to have someone else serve them proper home cooked food, and enjoy it more than yet another 'prick and ping' meal in a box.

No slob ever came home to a beautifully clean and organised house, fresh bedsheets and clean towels and said 'Uuurgh how disappointing. I hate it like this.'

@PippyLongmocking

I agree on the show home comment. I don't expect that. But picking up after yourself, cleaning a kitchen hob, vacuum once in while, wipe piss off the toilet. General cleaning.

Not leaving a shower to go black with mould, filthy floors, a kitchen that's just left to ruin.

Plump a pillow if you need to but I'm talking things like not making a bed, sleeping on the bare mattress etc.
Apparently these are high standards.

I was going to say yab a bit u.

But not with these things!

I don't think people who change who they are. There needs to be compromise.

But I do think basics like tidying up after yourself, wiping down a surface and wiping a loo seat are basics.

What I don't think is people should "higher their standards" when that basically means doing the washing up when a partner demands it rather than when you're ready. For example I see people who want the dishwasher loaded straight after dinner - their partner wants a coffee and will "do it later". They do it themselves or "it won't get done". Which often they have no evidence for - they just won't wait and let the person do it when they're ready and become martyrs to the cause of "if I don't do it no one else will".

I'm a big fan of chore charts. Not necessarily assigning each person a chore - there is only ds and I in this house. But a list of daily tasks and weekly tasks and monthly tasks.

It's visual then what needs doing and each person puts their initial by a job when they've done it. We do naturally have jobs we've personally taken on (Eg ds hoovers the whole flat on Sundays) but if he was doing some college work and I was free I'd do it.
The same way I like doing the ironing so do it watching tv on Sunday am - but if insider he'd just iron something if he needed it.

I think the trick is not turning it into a blame game but that does require team work rather than equal standards and an understanding and agreement of the minimal standards you will have in the household.

I do think those that have very high standards have to accept that that may create extra work for themselves. But I'm talking standards beyond what's needed.

But yes, I cannot imagine living my life with someone who won't even make an effort to bin rubbish or wipe down a surface after themselves.

@PurpleOkapi

I'm female, and my husband finds himself in that position a lot. Not to the extremes OP describes, but his standards are a lot higher than mine for most things.

It's not that I don't see the mess - I know it's there. I'm just completely unbothered by it. I didn't care when I lived alone, either. When it got messy enough to bother me, I'd clean. That wasn't very often. It's not some convoluted conspiracy to "force" my husband to do it for me. I legit do not care whether he cleans or not. If he didn't, I'd either get around to it eventually or hire a cleaner. No big deal either way. I guess I'm mildly grateful that I no longer have to deal with it at all, but because I don't share OP's terror of mess and dirt, I don't view it as him saving me from some horrible fate.

I agree with you that OP should just quit doing it and let the chips fall where they may. She "can't." That's her prerogative, but past a point, it's really her own fault.

Me too.

I have always been messy.
I also think it comes from detesting repetitive jobs . I much prefer tackling a filthy room than keep on top of cleaning a tidy one.

I also find my very clean and tidy husband hard to live with. I genuinely don’t understand how a few dirty plates in the kitchen or not vacuuming make him twitchy.

InterestingIy, I do all the gardening as DH can’t cope with that.

@PurpleOkapi

I'm made happy by my cleaning, nobody else. 🤣🤣🤣 The main bathroom is used by guests so yes it matters if it's filthy.

And you're apparently the only who cares about how guests perceive this. I'm not saying I agree with him about that. But it should be clear to you by now that this is much more important to you than it is to him. No amount of nagging will make him agree with you about its importance.

I clean the bathroom and toilet I use, I also then have to go into a bathroom I don't use and do that as well. When they could just do it after their shower/used the toilet.

No, you don't "have" to. You choose to. I understand why you choose to, but framing this as though you have no agency whatsoever is counterproductive.

Mould is a health hazard.

Close the door. Shove a towel under the gap if you're that worried about it. Though if mould is popping so often that cleaning it whenever it appears is a real hardship, and you can't just spray something on it every few weeks, it's probably a bigger issue with the house itself.

Why is it me poisoning the well and not them by not upping their standards? Because you're the one making empty threats about divorce.

Reframe. Hey slovenly one, don't ruin your marriage over the floors and toilet, you know they just love a clean house, humour them, up your standards and just wipe piss off a toilet, it'll stop that whining and you might get laid.

It doesn't matter whose fault it is. All that matters is that you can't force him to do anything he's determined not to do. The only thing you can control is what you do about it. Clearly he's decided that getting laid (by you, at least) isn't worth cleaning the toilet. Which isn't terribly surprising if you're yelling about divorce all the time.

By all means, leave your marriage if you're so unhappy. That's your choice. Understand that, own it, and be prepared to live with the consequences either way. If you choose to stay, one of those consequences will be that nothing gets cleaned unless you clean it yourself. Either that's worth it to you, or it isn't. But if you choose to stay, the healthiest approach would be to try to find peace with the situation, not do everything in your power to make sure everyone else is as miserable as you are.

No bugger is made miserable by me pondering why I should wait until the house resembles a squat before I clean it. My aibu was why should standards be lowered rather than lifted.

Would you think unmade beds, piss on toilers and filthy bathrooms are OK?
You'd sleep and use facilities like that?
Or would you prefer a clean hygienic space?
Good sleep hygiene comes from an inviting sleep space, not something that resembles a dog bed.

If I walked into someone's house and the toilet is gross, unmade beds, filth everywhere, I'm going to think there's a problem. Are these people depressed?
You're saving no problem, not depressed, just lazy.
I'm saying why not up your standards?
Would you want your kids bullied at school for stinking toilets for their friends to use or unwashed uniforms?

As for empty threats of divorce, he has some redeeming features or I'd leave, but I do wish the standard was people raise their expectations rather than lower them.
You disagree
That's fine.

@YouJustFoldItIn

Try to remember that the only person made happy by your cleaning is you. He's not intentionally forcing you to do all the work - he genuinely doesn't care if you do it or not.

That's only true to a point. He might not care whether the bathroom is cleaned once a week or once a month but he'd care if it was not cleaned for a year. Lazy people people with low standards and no self discipline don't prefer dirty, chaotic homes. They just prefer them somewhat in comparison to precious time spent cleaning and tidying, when they could be doing something else, or nothing. It's like people who hate cooking - most of them accept that at some point some basic level of cooking needs to be done in order for them to eat. They do it as seldom as possible but are usually quite delighted to have someone else serve them proper home cooked food, and enjoy it more than yet another 'prick and ping' meal in a box.

No slob ever came home to a beautifully clean and organised house, fresh bedsheets and clean towels and said 'Uuurgh how disappointing. I hate it like this.'

It is exactly this. Different priorities. But yes, if a year went by and I just did zero, he'd probably think it was pretty gross. Kids don't deserve a filthy house. They can't help it when they're tiny. I'm not asking for much, just spray toilet after use. Spray a shower once a week. Make your bed.

This definitely isn’t a case of lowering your standards op, the problem is entirely with him. Not changing the bed for a month is one thing, sleeping on a bare mattress is entirely another. Your posts sound really like someone who has had enough, I would get out of there if you can. I couldn’t respect a partner like that (let alone find them attractive) and once respect goes, it is pretty much over.
I thought this thread would be about relaxing on obsessive housework a bit which can be a good thing, what you describe, is basic living standards. LTB!!

Aibu to think the messiest laziest member of the household has a better deal. They get to do jack shit while proclaiming 'I just don't see mess' 'it doesn't bother me'.

I feel you OP. I lived in a five person flat share as a student. One of my flat mates was filthy with such low standards. I’d come in from uni/work and the coffee table would be completely buried under used crockery, empty takeaway boxes, snacks etc. Her war cry was literally, ‘I just don’t see mess!’ and she refused to clean it despite every other flatmate trying to rationalise with her.

We would end up picking up all her mess so we could live more comfortably.

YANBU - DP had to raise his standards.
He lived alone when we met so stayed relatively clean but I hate mess so now he makes a conscious effort to not be messy. He has spaces around the house where it’s messy as hell but I can close the doors (chest, wardrobe, office etc).

Now with two DC it’s a shit hole ten minutes after cleaning and we run around like blue arse flies 😂. Just employed a cleaner though. Very excited.

Firstly YANBU.

My DH did do a temporary weird reggession thing at one point when bought our first property together ( we had been living together for a while already) so it came as a shock. I wasnt sure what to do.

There are more examples than the below i could give... but the tl:dr is I am a gaslighting nutter and my DH is fundamentally a good egg but my house is clean.

Because AITA i go for what i'll describe as a sideways nuclear option...
So for example
1. pissing around and down the side of toilet
compose self, rearrange face to concern and fear. Conveniently he was about to phone his mum... i dramatically sweep into the room, interrupt the call loudly announcing "there's an emergency!!! He must come, make haste!!!" I explain the toilet is leaking we need a plumber!!! ignoring the fact it's clearly piss and it is on the toilet seat too
Him: it could be anything.
Me: ** its a leak!!! There is NO other logical explanation is there???
Him: umms and ahhs. maybe its piss...
Me: what?
Him: repeats
Me: 🤷‍♀️ okay that would be bizarre but its not mine so i'll leave you to thoroughly clean it.

He then did it again
We repeated the elaborate timewasting to-do and i concluded i was sure he was tricking me and trying to avoid shelling out £££ on a plumber as i know he wouldn't piss everytwhere and walk off and leave it. What kind of arsehole would do that?
If it happened again i was calling a plumber and he needed to go to urologist and opticians. It stopped.

2. His body hair he stopped cleaning and my rule is its 50 / 50 so if he isnt dusting, i am not dusting. His hair gets fucking everywhere including memorably IN my lunch. Which tipped me over the edge.

I started "rearranging" them so they were much more visible to him. I started on wednesday.

• On his keyboard
• On top of his phone when he left it to charge
• floating in his tea he was horrified but said nothing
• On top of his sandwich at lunch (that actually got their on its own i just added friends ) again visibly shocked. I ignored him.
• pressed a cream jumper he was planning to wear onto the bathroom floor so it was enmeshed with body hair. This in particular drove him crazy as he is fastidious about clothing and presentstion.
• a nice clump on his toothbrush. There were wretching sounds

He suggested a big clean saturday morning. I agreed as had noticed the house was getting "a bit dusty"

@LivingLaVidaBabyShower. That’s brilliant!

When the dc were small I worked part time so did most of cleaning. Dh has a particularly Hyacinth Bouquet db and sil. If they were visiting I would ask dh to pitch in with a deep clean, his response was always ‘This is our home people have to take us as they find us.’
It was a reasonable sounding excuse for being lazy.
Fast forward to dh now retired. He is a fussy clean freak. Worse than me.
If/when he comments on my cleaning I delight in telling him this is our home and people must take us as they find us.

It's easier to drag someone down than haul someone up. Shit isn't it. That's the reality though. You can't make someone want to do better. It's a fundamental mismatch like different attitudes to money priorities, or parenting style. If there's a clash it's a big rub. Will it kill your marriage? Well the big issues do because it's daily friction.
Yanbu

@Capferret ooooh yes!
We have a "your guests, you host" policy and now the house is "done up" DH is quite houseproud so i often suggest having some of his friends for dinner if i want the downstairs tidied "for free"

@LivingLaVidaBabyShower I salute you!

I so wish I had done this with ex-husband. Instead I thought "one of us has to be the adult about this" and just cleaned, washed, ironed, shopped and so on - me, it was always me doing the adulting.

He sounds disgusting, lazy and disrespectful. I’d be getting counselling if I wanted to save my marriage. It’s symptomatic of disrespect for you.

My husband is messier than me and doesn’t see dirt. We have a cleaner. My husband also makes an effort to tidy up/clean although it does still cause arguments as he feels “I’m being critical”. We had marriage counselling for a range of reasons and it has helped. Lockdown has definitely made it harder as he’s here 24/7. But the key for us has been respect and empathy and paying for a cleaner!

As always, it’s a middle ground.

IME MN gets very uptight about mess and people seem to spend a lot of time thinking about it. Personally I don’t.

I don’t want to live in a shit tip but I can’t say I care about mess either tbh.

My grandma died when my mum was a teenager and mum never learnt household skills as she was looking after younger siblings ( she could feed 6 people on a shoestring though) . Mum was always untidy and didn’t pass house organisational skills on to me. I like it to be tidy but i don’t enjoy the process and if a better offer comes along I just leave it ! My kitchen and bathroom are clean. My ex used to moan I was untidy but did little himself and had terrible personal hygiene. Ironically since I left him my house is much tidier !

YANBU, but you do need to address this in a different way. My DH isn’t bad but definitely has some house habits which I can’t stand (hoarding, doesn’t see mess, leaves food out etc). He’d probably say the same about me. But I sat down and explained to him that it’s not me being a nag, living in an untidy messy dirty house severely affects my mental health and unless he wants me to be miserable and anxious all the time he needs to try to raise his standards. We also have a cleaner. I think that basic standards (sheets, no mould) are absolutely non negotiable when you have kids. Why does this happen? I do think that it’s a mixture of not being bothered themselves about it but also just plain laziness in some other cases- but that’s no excuse, if you know something really bothers your partner you should at least try to address it if you value the relationship.

I'm not going to comment on the specifics here, because the OP has asked a general question: why should the tidy person have to lower their standards?

I guess you could flip that on its head, why should the untidy person feel compelled to constantly be doing housework to live up to standards they don't feel are necessary?

I think this is one of those situations where actually neither side are being unreasonable. Whatever people are prepared to admit on social media, we all have our own standards. There was a post on here the other day from a highly successful high-flying mum who only changes her bedlinen once a month. Lots of people would find that absolutely minging - but for some it's clearly fine.

The answer is to have a happy life you both have to be willing to compromise, and understand that when it comes to tidiness etc you're never going to agree on what's "right". Consideration for each other's feelings and the willingness for you both to compromise is the only solution really. The tidy person needs to learn to relax about not tut, scowl or moan about the mess, while the messy person needs to pull their finger out, and do what's been agreed without being nagged or cajoled.

I have ADHD and really, really struggle with my executive functioning. I find it extremely hard to organise my thoughts and that transfers into finding it difficult to keep my surroundings neat and organised. Funnily enough though I'm actually the one who craves tidiness as although I find it difficult to keep on top of things, mess drives me bonkers!!! I have a messy DP and it's a constant source of conflict. We're working on it but it's hard. We have a lot of conversations about "mental load" where I keep explaining that when I have to remind/ask him to do things, it's not fair because I'm not his mum.

Ultimately you decide what you can live with, and where your line lies. It doesn't matter what anyone on here says about whether your expectations are reasonable or not - if you can't live with how they behave, then that's enough. Empty threats are pointless though, if you think it's worth splitting up over then maybe a temporary split would show them that you're willing to walk unless they are prepared to meet you halfway.

Oh OP, I totally understand,
We live in our house since 2 years and my OH has never cleaned a bathroom, or used the mop.
If I ask him to clean the main bathroom he says that "He does not think the bathroom needs cleaning" and leave it in horrible horrible Status for days/weeks until it becomes more a power game (and an health hazard) and then i give up and clean it myself because i just cannot stand it.

I always think those who live in mess and filth have big houses- my house is tiny and if my husband and I didn’t tidy and clean 6 x a time we’d be buried

I got my husband straight from his mother (who did everything for him) so he was soon licked into shape to clean, do laundry etc.

I already had one child at the time, there was no way I’d have a man child as well!

He’s still blind to dirt on skirting boards, the coffee splatters on the wooden stairs, the pee puddle on the bog floor (he’s now 51 ffs, I should not have to be cleaning up man piss ffs, especially after I’ve stuck my fluffy sock in the bloody stuff).

Sometimes it’s like he’s dust blind.

He’s also one of these “Let me relax for 20 mins then I’ll do it!” types, whereas I’m a “I need it clean now, then I can relax!”.

This has lead to many an impasse. And thoughts of either chopping him up & fertilising my veggie patch with him, or divorce (I tend to err towards option 1).

Now, as my spinal disability is deteriorating, I have to let him take the lead sometimes, which is utterly frustrating (compounded by a pain consultant who bangs on about ‘pacing yourself’ when I like to tool up & just get the ruddy house done).

Don’t get me wrong, he’s great, but how he could spend £500 on bloody varifocals and still not see a filthy bathroom sink utterly astounds me.

My DH doesn’t clean out house because he doesn’t see the dirt 🙄
Yet I’ve found out that he’s been cleaning at his mum’s house as she’s just gone into a home, so he’s keeping it clean for her.

@PippyLongmocking

I agree on the show home comment. I don't expect that. But picking up after yourself, cleaning a kitchen hob, vacuum once in while, wipe piss off the toilet. General cleaning.

Not leaving a shower to go black with mould, filthy floors, a kitchen that's just left to ruin.

Plump a pillow if you need to but I'm talking things like not making a bed, sleeping on the bare mattress etc.
Apparently these are high standards.

That sounds vile! Is someone making you live like that?