Shocked at how terrible the NHS is nowadays

[ConfusedBoobs]

I had a mammogram a month ago that showed I have calcifications that they don't think are cancer but they won't know for sure until after I've had a biopsy. Today I found out that the biopsy can't be prioritised as urgent and so will still be another month away. AIBU to think it's terrible to leave people in limbo like this?

The nhs is not a bottomless pit. It is an underfunded structure working on the goodwill of its staff. It needs investment and a cross party long term strategy for its management, not tweaking by every idiot health minister who can't read a brief.

@julieca

Except we don't pay high taxes.

Yes we do. And certainly too high for what we get.

If you increase taxes even more there will be a mass exodus of high earners. Brexit has killed the appeal of the UK and the pound. Those who are mobile will just get fed up with paying even more - living alongside council flats with luxury cars parked outside and sending their kids to nurseries where some are heavily subsidised affording them a better lifestyle than those who pay full fees. This country needs to modernise not prop itself by expecting high earners to subsidise the majority.

@Igfdyjxzyjkv
While I don't disagree with the reality of the first part of your post, there is so much wrong with the final sentence that I don't know where to start

We don’t pay high tax in relation to many other countries ( that funnily enough have great standards of care).

‘This country needs to modernise not prop itself by expecting high earners to subsidise the majority.’
I don’t know where to start with this statement. 😳

We dont pay nearly as much as other countries for healthcare. Whether that is through taxes, or through more hidden costs such as insurance policies. In no other service would people pay a half or a quarter of other people, but expect the same service.

@Hopeisallineed

‘This country needs to modernise not prop itself by expecting high earners to subsidise the majority.’ I don’t know where to start with this statement. 😳

You may disagree with it but these are the views of the people you would have pay more for the NHS. The people who earn higher incomes have very little tolerance for higher taxes when it would effectively cancel out their effort. If Labour is going to have a chance at any future election it needs to address this sense of unfairness.

Everyone has to pay more via tax for the NHS. A percentage rise would be fair.
Insurance schemes mean the better off will pay less for medical care than they do now and the poor will pay much more.The poor will be subsidising the well off who tend to have better health. Because if you have poor health or are disabled you are more likely to only manage a low paying job or part-time hours.
I don't want a world where the poor subsidise the rich.

@julieca

Everyone has to pay more via tax for the NHS. A percentage rise would be fair. Insurance schemes mean the better off will pay less for medical care than they do now and the poor will pay much more.The poor will be subsidising the well off who tend to have better health. Because if you have poor health or are disabled you are more likely to only manage a low paying job or part-time hours. I don't want a world where the poor subsidise the rich.

The poor would be subsidised/receive free care. People who can pay will pay and have more choice. I really can’t see what is wrong with this. The system will become more efficient and work better for everyone.

@Igfdyjxzyjkv No only the very poorest would receive free care. Those getting £73 a week benefits to live on. Virtually everyone would pay. And nearly all the poorest would pay more than at present either through premiums or co-pay or both. That is how insurance schemes work. The premiums would be sky high if all those who were poor didn't have to pay. It won't happen. In some areas, a quarter of people are officially in poverty. That means they struggle to pay bills and food.
You want everyone struggling as food, fuel and transport costs rise, to have an additional expense, all so that well off people pay less for better health care and some rich people make money.
It makes no sense that adding another layer of bureaucracy at minimum to sell insurance and collect co-pays and take people to court for non-payment, would be seen as efficient use of money. And probably some money going to shareholders as well. And this is supposed to be efficiency?

@Knownbyanothername

So not fully free at point of service then…

How isn’t it? I don’t have to pay for ambo insurance, it’s a choice. Plenty of people get ambulances and never pay, it’s just a slightly different set up than the UK, and one which stops most people abusing the service. I reckon that’s a good thing, ymmv.

Yes its a choice not to pay for ambulance insurance. So shall I pay my heating bill or buy ambulance insurance? And my child is knocked over by a car!! No ambulance insurance. Bundle them into a car to get to hospital. I might paralyse them by moving them, but I have no choice.

These are the kind of choices insurance creates. No issue at all for the many very well off people in MN. For ordinary families though it can mean one small step away from disaster.

I have relatives in America who have the same illness I have. My aunt my age - late fifties, is already dead as she couldn't afford proper treatment and because of the many exclusions in available insurance policies.
The focus of the Tories is always that people are abusing services. In reality they are a tiny number. There are far more people reluctant to bother their Dr with the bit of bleeding from their bum, or who delay going to hospital until they are close to death.
I have been at a hospital clinic and seen the nurses call a Dr down for an elderly man to do an emergency admittance as he was really ill and just waited for his scheduled appointment. I have taken my DP to the GP surgery and been sent straight to hospital as an urgent case.
Your recipe will kill more people while meaning more money for well off people.

It’s breaking because those in charge of the country are breaking it on purpose so they can justify handing it over to private firms.

I’m sorry you’re going through this.

Also the idea that insurance stops people abusing the system is laughable. For people, having to pay £15 co-pay to visit a GP for whom £15 is nothing, they will still go at a drop of a hat with nothing.
And if you make A and E free then people will just go there instead and queue for much longer. If you don't make A and E free, then more people will die.

So @julieca tell us what your recipe would be? How much more NI should people pay? Because it’s fine to say more money, but how much?

And if you put taxes up it will affect all but the poorest so how is that any different from paying into an insurance scheme?
The money has to come from somewhere.

The awful waste has to be tackled too. As someone upthread said there are multiple layers of management who give no value to the NHS. That has to be sorted.

@Igfdyjxzyjkv I have said my recipe many times.

1. Put up tax - not NI. Only working people pay NI, not the richest.
2. Recruit more immigrants in the short term to full medic vacancies and reduce the money-wasting reliance on locums. Big publicity recruiting campaigns abroad for this. And generous offers such as giving citizenship to whole family.
3. Medium to long term - train people in areas where there are shortages e,g, GPs, midwives, etc.
4. Reform social care so that beds are not taken up with people who no longer need to be inhospital. Probably would mean some local authority care homes and convalescence homes.
5. Fund care for serious mental health conditions appropriately. A lot of people attending A and E and GPs have serious mental health problems. London used to have a specific mental health A and E that anyone could turn up to staffed by specialist staff.
6. Reform government policies that worsen health. Have a focus on public health. Countries that invest in this in the long term see a reduction in acute health spending. But it is thinking long term rather than short term.

You need to recognise what the actual issues are and they are shortage of money and shortage of trained staff and a lack of long term planning.

@Knownbyanothername insurance schemes add another layer of bureaucracy and management. The UK already employs 314,000 people to work in insurance. Add complex health insurance with regular co-pays and that amount of staff significantly increases.

[quote julieca]@Igfdyjxzyjkv I have said my recipe many times.

1. Put up tax - not NI. Only working people pay NI, not the richest.
2. Recruit more immigrants in the short term to full medic vacancies and reduce the money-wasting reliance on locums. Big publicity recruiting campaigns abroad for this. And generous offers such as giving citizenship to whole family.
3. Medium to long term - train people in areas where there are shortages e,g, GPs, midwives, etc.
4. Reform social care so that beds are not taken up with people who no longer need to be inhospital. Probably would mean some local authority care homes and convalescence homes.
5. Fund care for serious mental health conditions appropriately. A lot of people attending A and E and GPs have serious mental health problems. London used to have a specific mental health A and E that anyone could turn up to staffed by specialist staff.
6. Reform government policies that worsen health. Have a focus on public health. Countries that invest in this in the long term see a reduction in acute health spending. But it is thinking long term rather than short term.

You need to recognise what the actual issues are and they are shortage of money and shortage of trained staff and a lack of long term planning.[/quote]
Pretty much the NHS LongTerm Plan then .

If Labour is going to have a chance at any future election it needs to address this sense of unfairness

Unfairness??
Tell you what, all those hard done by higher earners can live a life of poverty in the UK for 3 months and then we'll see what they think about "unfairness"

If you increase taxes even more there will be a mass exodus of high earners.

To where exactly? France, Germany, Italy, Greece, Portugal, Sweden, Netherlands, Denmark, Belgium, Switzerland, Australia, Japan, Canada, Ireland, all have higher top tax rates than the UK. Spain, Poland, Estonia etc do have lower rates but strangley enough we don't see a mass exodus as things stand (they could move to the Czech Republic right now and save 30% don't).

Maybe you're thinking they'll all move to America? But the US have a pretty strict immigration policy and while the high earner might get in, if they are approved for a work visa, there's a good chance their families won't qualify. And once you combine federal, state, local, property and sales taxes with things like the need for private medical care I'm not sure you'd be all that much better off.

Or maybe if you have an insurance scheme there will be a mass exodus of low earners to Wales and Scotland. Try getting your house cleaners or care workers if we all decide to fuck off to a country where we can get healthcare.

@julieca

I have relatives in America who have the same illness I have. My aunt my age - late fifties, is already dead as she couldn't afford proper treatment and because of the many exclusions in available insurance policies. The focus of the Tories is always that people are abusing services. In reality they are a tiny number. There are far more people reluctant to bother their Dr with the bit of bleeding from their bum, or who delay going to hospital until they are close to death. I have been at a hospital clinic and seen the nurses call a Dr down for an elderly man to do an emergency admittance as he was really ill and just waited for his scheduled appointment. I have taken my DP to the GP surgery and been sent straight to hospital as an urgent case. Your recipe will kill more people while meaning more money for well off people.

I agree that a reluctance to bother the doctor is definitely part of the problem in the UK . While I believe in universal free healthcare, I said upthread that ironically, when you have to pay insurance premiums, you tend to go to all your check-ups, because you've directly paid for them, IYSWIM. It's like claiming on your car or house insurance, you want something for your money!

That's my experience as a Brit currently living in the US anyway - I'm not going to miss out on my annual physical/ mammogram, etc., because I've paid the insurance company for it, whereas I hardly ever went to the doctor's in the UK.

So in my family's case, problems have been spotted and treated earlier. One positive thing is that since Obamacare began, insurance is far more widely available here in the US. The state I live in has just rolled out a very low-cost option for under-35's, for example, as they're more likely to forego health insurance. It really is affordable and I hope this type of plan continues -because I doubt European-style universal healthcare will ever happen.