Penelope jackson guilty of murder

[Thomasina79]

I’ve been following this news item with interest. She is the woman who stabbed her violent and coercive and bullying husband to death after 20 years of torment. She denied murder, but admitted manslaughter.

Am I being unreasonable in thinking the jury should have not found her guilty of murder but guilty of manslaughter. Murder carries a life sentence in prison and I cannot see that that there is anything to gain by locking her away.

@saraclara have you read my first post?

I'm not accepting any "justification for murder", what she did was abhorrent and I've stated more than once that whatever view you take about her, the outcome of the trial was the right one.

I'm simply acknowledging that it's a tragic thing to have happened and that if she was the victim of long term domestic abuse its tragic for her too.

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]For specific to England and Wales, 37% mothers and 63% fathers murdering their own children. It’s simply a fact that women can murder family members.
bmjpaedsopen.bmj.com/content/bmjpo/1/1/e000112/DC1/embed/inline-supplementary-material-1.pdf?download=true[/quote]
There's 3 cases very recently running.

One is mum and step mum, one mum and step dad and one is just mum (completed)

It's obviously anecdotal but there is evidence mums can be involved in the harm and deaths of their babies at quite an incidence.

She's guilty, ok. But a life sentence? Unlike men who get ridiculously short sentences.

[quote TaraR2020]@saraclara have you read my first post?

I'm not accepting any "justification for murder", what she did was abhorrent and I've stated more than once that whatever view you take about her, the outcome of the trial was the right one.

I'm simply acknowledging that it's a tragic thing to have happened and that if she was the victim of long term domestic abuse its tragic for her too.[/quote]
Fair enough. I was just going in your exchange with @mountbattenbergcake.

But I do believe that there'd be none of this hand wringing over her attitude and her earlier life experiences (and the lack of remorse wasn't just instant, it continued right up to the court case) had she been a man.

But I do believe that there'd be none of this hand wringing over her attitude and her earlier life experiences (and the lack of remorse wasn't just instant, it continued right up to the court case) had she been a man

I agree with you there, @saraclara. As women who support other women, we need to own it when one commits a terrible crime against a man.

@CatsArePeople

She's guilty, ok. But a life sentence? Unlike men who get ridiculously short sentences.

Everyone who murders gets a life sentence - its the law. The difference is the minimum amount of time spent before you get considered for parole.

In this case, it was a lack of remorse and her conduct at the point of contact with the authorities which will have set this above the minimum point of 15 years.

But I do believe that there'd be none of this hand wringing over her attitude and her earlier life experiences (and the lack of remorse wasn't just instant, it continued right up to the court case) had she been a man.

I agree with you. I also think no one would have been defending a man, whether being abused or not, who’d stabbed his wife once and then came back and did it again while she was calling 999, and saying he shouldn’t have been convicted of murder.

He was husband number 4. Number 3 killed himself. Reports of her being a bully and a liar. She didn’t even tell her daughter that husband 4 wasn’t her Father. She’s exactly where she needs to be.

@CounsellorTroi

But I do believe that there'd be none of this hand wringing over her attitude and her earlier life experiences (and the lack of remorse wasn't just instant, it continued right up to the court case) had she been a man.

I agree with you. I also think no one would have been defending a man, whether being abused or not, who’d stabbed his wife once and then came back and did it again while she was calling 999, and saying he shouldn’t have been convicted of murder.

Agree.

The recent case (Andrew?) who claimed and was found guilty with diminished responsibility got a few years for manslaughter - and everyone called for murder and disputed it.

We now have a woman who admits there wasn't diminished responsibility and she feels no remorse and people want manslaughter and not murder (not everyone I agree as many here feel it's the right verdict as the jury are the ones who heard the evidence)

Was that the man who was Psychotic at the time of the murder and was remanded to a secure psychiatric facility? He got life and was recommended to serve at least 8 years ,if that's the case ,he will likely spend a lot longer than 8 years as he's detained under the mental health act Psychiatrists ,can keep people in hospital as they need to be there forever if needed

@TaraR2020

But I do believe that there'd be none of this hand wringing over her attitude and her earlier life experiences (and the lack of remorse wasn't just instant, it continued right up to the court case) had she been a man

I agree with you there, @saraclara. As women who support other women, we need to own it when one commits a terrible crime against a man.

I don't think there would be any hand wringing about a man getting life for murdering his wife.

@ScienceSensibility

There are a number of legal defences to murder, which would reduce the crime to manslaughter.

Provocation is one of the defences. Sounds like she was massively abused over so many years to constitute provocation?

The only one who mentioned abuse over many years was the murderer, she'd used the policve in the past but with no charges being brought. Being a woman does not make it all true.

The only one who mentioned abuse over many years was the murderer, she'd used the policve in the past but with no charges being brought. Being a woman does not make it all true.

But that’s not true. Eye witnesses (their dd) saw him holding a knife to her throat years ago and even his son said he had seen him raise a hand to her (he didn’t see him hit her but it’s still a threat of violence).

@Wannakisstheteacher

He was husband number 4. Number 3 killed himself. Reports of her being a bully and a liar. She didn’t even tell her daughter that husband 4 wasn’t her Father. She’s exactly where she needs to be.

Ah yes how dare a woman have more than one husband

Why not mention that the victim was married 3 times?

@saraclara - that is an interesting question. I think because we are well aware of cases where women have snapped and reacted violently to abusers, I’m always open to that being a possibility. I’m not personally aware of a case where the same has happened in reverse - is that because such a defence wouldn’t fly for a man? Or because men behave differently and it doesn’t really happen? I don’t know.

However, I do know that men do suffer terrible abuse from female partners and I wouldn’t judge someone who snapped and lashed out after extreme provocation in the same way I would an abuser. Someone posted (think it might have been another thread?) a clip from 24 Hours in Police Custody about a man who was hospitalised by his female partner and ultimately died. Much police involvement. Had someone in his position reacted violently, I would him to be treated with some leniency in the same way I would a female victim. Is violence right? No. Is reactive violence as heinous as abuse? Again, no.

@CatsArePeople

She's guilty, ok. But a life sentence? Unlike men who get ridiculously short sentences.

So men get ridiculously short sentences but you want her to have the same sentence as them - so she could get a ridiculously short sentence too? Where's the logic? She's a murderer. A life sentence is exactly what murderers should get.

Thing is men don't get short sentences.

Sentences come along side crimes. Each crime as a sentence guide with minimum sentence and sometimes maximum.

In this case there was no plea for diminished responsibility which would have carried a 4 year ish sentence or secure detainment. I'm assuming as her defence didn't out this plea forwards it's because neither she or them thought she was diminished when she killed him?

There was manslaughter plea and murder.

She was found guilty of murder based on all the evidence given. Therefore her sentence is for murder. Minimum is 15 years and she got 18. Again based on the evidence the judge heard - and in this case it was her admitted lack of remorse. Often information she volunteered herself

She got her just desserts. She could have divorced him but made the conscious choice not to. Her selfish actions have meant that a man is dead, her daughter is without both parents and any grandchildren will have no maternal grandparents. If he was that bad she had plenty of time to walk away, this was unjustified.

If you are convicted of murder, the only sentence, the mandatory sentence, is life imprisonment. The judge will set the tariff to be served before the person convicted can apply for parole, and in this case he set it at 3 years over the sentencing guidelines because of the level of violence she used. But a murder conviction always leads to a life sentence, which usually is term served and then the rest of your life on licence. I'd expect an appeal here, because of the minimum term handed down.

Why didn’t she just leave if he was so awful? Honestly she sounded like an evil person in that body camera clip. No sympathy from me.

@x2boys

Was that the man who was Psychotic at the time of the murder and was remanded to a secure psychiatric facility? He got life and was recommended to serve at least 8 years ,if that's the case ,he will likely spend a lot longer than 8 years as he's detained under the mental health act Psychiatrists ,can keep people in hospital as they need to be there forever if needed

It's Anthony Williams. Not Andrew! He was found guilty of manslaughter by diminished responsibility and the prosecution in that case accepted the diminished responsibility plea. He got 5 years and many called for a higher sentence stating murder.

Can you link to the case you're thinking of?

There was another case during lockdown where a mum ended the life of her disabled son as she couldn't cope. I think that had a diminished responsibility plea that was also accepted by all parties?

The thing that stands out for me is where there is diminished responsibility it's usually accepted by birth sides. There must be something different with these cases that makes it very obvious and not something that can really be proven against?

Presumably he had a good pension so it made more sense to hang around.

Sorry I can't link @itsgettingweird ,but his name was Peter Hartshorn -jones ,there was a thread about a week a go , titled,Selfish ,Selfish man .

Thanks. With that info I can research it.

Yes and the case where the mother killed the disabled ,child ,there was a thread about that too lots of sympathy for the mother ,I really struggled with that thread because whilst I agree she should have got diminished responsibility, because she was also psychotic ,I'm also the parent of a severely disabled child and it felt like ,there was more sympathy in here for the mother than the child .