Penelope jackson guilty of murder

[Thomasina79]

I’ve been following this news item with interest. She is the woman who stabbed her violent and coercive and bullying husband to death after 20 years of torment. She denied murder, but admitted manslaughter.

Am I being unreasonable in thinking the jury should have not found her guilty of murder but guilty of manslaughter. Murder carries a life sentence in prison and I cannot see that that there is anything to gain by locking her away.

Agreed 💯. So many handmaidens on this thread.

FFS. What have we come to if acknowledging that a woman might well be guilty of killing in cold blood, makes one a handmaiden?

I'm sick of this all women are innocent, all men are guilty syndrome. It's far from the case, and when simply applying logic and reason to an issue is seen as 'pandering to the menz' we're pretty much doomed. And as I said earlier, playing to the 'women are irrational' trope.

We weren't there. We don't know. The jury have more of an idea than us and have decided that yes she intended to kill him. It doesn't matter why. She could be a victim too or she could not. I can't just say oh my partner was cruel and abusive 5 years ago so I decided to stab him and expect to get away with it. There has to be more to it than that.

And as I said earlier, playing to the 'women are irrational' trope. yes, in a weird way it is insulting to assume that a woman can't intentionally kill someone.

@saraclara

Agreed 💯. So many handmaidens on this thread.

FFS. What have we come to if acknowledging that a woman might well be guilty of killing in cold blood, makes one a handmaiden?

I'm sick of this all women are innocent, all men are guilty syndrome. It's far from the case, and when simply applying logic and reason to an issue is seen as 'pandering to the menz' we're pretty much doomed. And as I said earlier, playing to the 'women are irrational' trope.

It was much the same on the Ioan Gruffudd thread. Most people saying he was a cheating scumbag despite no one actually knowing and defending his wife’s online abuse of him.

[quote mountbattenbergcake]@Felix125

They will be other incidents of of women killing men - they just do not make headline news for some reason.

93% of murderes in the UK are men.[/quote]
Of adults. If you look at murder of babies/ children you parents..very different.

@itsgettingwierd

Did Penelope go for diminished responsibility? Did she have psychological assessment before trial?

One would assume she would have had some psychoanalysis arranged by her defence if she claimed loss of control? Did any psychologists give evidence? For the defence or prosecution? The prosecution can ask for separate witness reports if they dispute the original or to raise questions to ask about the original report.

No, she went for loss of control which is a different defence. As far as I can see, no psychological evidence was presented.

One of the elements needed for a loss of control defence to succeed is that a person of the accused's age and sex, with a normal degree of tolerance and self-restraint, might have reacted in the same way or a similar way in the same circumstances. Evidence of psychological issues would undermine that as it would suggest that a person with normal tolerance and self-restraint would not have acted as she did.

If she had run a defence of diminished responsibility, there would definitely have been psychological evidence. With a defence of loss of control, the last thing the defence would want is evidence that she was not of sound mind.

Well said @saraclara

Of adults. If you look at murder of babies/ children you parents..very different.

Source? The only study UK study I found said:

“Overall, fathers were significantly more likely to kill their children than mothers, and were more likely to use violent methods of killing, have previous convictions for violent offences, perpetrate multiple killings, and have a history of substance misuse or dependence.”

Anyway, the thread was about men/women not kids.

None of us were there prior to the murder, during the murder or after the murder, nor were we in the court listening to the case, so none of us know the actual truth of the defining moment.
The jury found her guilty and the judge gave the sentence which he found fitting to the crime.
Everything else is pure speculation and hearsay.
The rumour mill is running rampant.

@x2boys

The irony *@mountbattenbergcake* 🙄 You are determined this women despite not knowing her is somehow the abused one ,I disagree , it's not all about your opinion

I’m not the one one saying people need to stop giving their opinions, that’s you.

@mountbattenbergcake

The post was about murderers in the UK. Did not specify men/women.

I see you did not link your source. Mine is a systematic world wide review of 9,431 studies.

“Data from 33 countries distinguishing the perpetrators of parental homicides of children under the age of 18 years showed that mothers committed just over half of all parental homicides (median 54.7%, IQR 36.7–68.8); in high-income countries, the median percentage was 44.4% (IQR 36.7–66.7), in the East Asia and Pacific region, 64.6% (IQR 59.0–69.3), in the Americas, 15.4% (IQR 13.3–17.4), in Africa, 88.6% (IQR 71.1–100.0), in low-income and middle-income Europe, 60.4% (IQR 45.8–75.0) and in the Mediterranean region, 7.4% (IQR 0.0–14.8).”

From Child homicide perpetrators worldwide: a systematic review, British Medical Journal. bmjpaedsopen.bmj.com/content/1/1/e000112

@itsgettingwierd

Mount what has stats of rape cases got to do with Oenelope being found guilty of murder by the people who sat through the evidence

People kept referencing the 8 female jurors on this case as if that proved the verdict was right.

My point is female jurors are often harsher on women.

I said people need to stop minimising what's happened ,and making stories up in there head

For specific to England and Wales, 37% mothers and 63% fathers murdering their own children. It’s simply a fact that women can murder family members.
bmjpaedsopen.bmj.com/content/bmjpo/1/1/e000112/DC1/embed/inline-supplementary-material-1.pdf?download=true

My point is female jurors are often harsher on women.

In rape cases. Not relevant to murder cases.

I love that people think she could be fairly pushed to stab him and then again while he was on the phone to 999 by him abusing her. But don't think, someone whose child had just committed suicide could be pushed to threaten their abusive partner with a knife which his daughter remembers happening when she was a child over 20 years ago. I can imagine an abusive partner could say some vile things after your child commits suicide to push you to want to kill them.

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@mountbattenbergcake

The post was about murderers in the UK. Did not specify men/women.

I see you did not link your source. Mine is a systematic world wide review of 9,431 studies.

“Data from 33 countries distinguishing the perpetrators of parental homicides of children under the age of 18 years showed that mothers committed just over half of all parental homicides (median 54.7%, IQR 36.7–68.8); in high-income countries, the median percentage was 44.4% (IQR 36.7–66.7), in the East Asia and Pacific region, 64.6% (IQR 59.0–69.3), in the Americas, 15.4% (IQR 13.3–17.4), in Africa, 88.6% (IQR 71.1–100.0), in low-income and middle-income Europe, 60.4% (IQR 45.8–75.0) and in the Mediterranean region, 7.4% (IQR 0.0–14.8).”

From Child homicide perpetrators worldwide: a systematic review, British Medical Journal. bmjpaedsopen.bmj.com/content/1/1/e000112[/quote]
I didn’t include a source as was difficult to find clear UK only stats. But here is the one I quoted.

Your source says the majority of child murders in high income countries are committed by men.

And that there were issues gathering data for all the countries studied.

@x2boys

I said people need to stop minimising what's happened ,and making stories up in there head

Yep, trying to police the thread.

@PlanDeRaccordement

My point is female jurors are often harsher on women.

In rape cases. Not relevant to murder cases.

If it holds for rape cases it likely holds for homicide too. Society has a much higher bar for women.

Look at the vilification of Kate McCann. Her husband was not vilified to the extent she was.

@TheAntiGardener thank you. Yes, I'm inclined to think her response was linked to relief and shock...How many of us have expressed extreme emotions when we've discovered we've been cheated on etc? (Of course we don't act on them!) When you watch true crime docs the murderers- many of whom are psychopathic - don't react like that.

I just hope that any mitigating factors are recognised and taken into account in an appeal, but I'm not convinced she'd even get a reduction in years. Whichever way you look at it, a prison sentence is the right outcome, however sad.

Agreed @TaraR2020

I don't think she gave the jury much choice but to find her guilty of murder. Whatever sympathy jurors do or don't have for the accused they still have to follow the law.

@TaraR2020 @TheAntiGardener @mountbattenbergcake would you accept the same justification for murder if the defendant had been a man who killed his wife? Would you have accepted his complete lack of remorse in the same way?

I don't think this case is as complicated as some say - she did show intent to murder. She returned to stab him again after the initial assault. Conceivably he might have survived if she had not done that, but manslaughter wasn't possible, and it wasn't diminished responsibility in any way- no evidence admitted on that, and she didn't plead this, did she?

She is a murderer, and the actual evidence that she was abused was rather scant in court. The jury didn't believe her manslaughter case because there was no arguable basis. Its a very different case from Sally Challen where there was a lot of evidence that was not taken into account by the courts.

Thanks ph that makes sense. What a minefield!