to blame Tony Blair for the lack of skilled workforce?

[dunkaccino]

In the 1980's only 15% of school leavers went into higher education leaving a good lot of people to become tradesmen/HGV drivers/butchers etc. Tony Blair decided in 1999 that 50% going to University was a great aim, which was finally achieved in 2019.

Now we have a lack of everyone useful - electricians, carpenters, fitters, engineers, butchers, drivers - coupled with a multitude of unskilled mickey mouse degree graduates who are of no practical use to anyone.

Covid & brexit have undeniably both played a part, but AIBU to think that Blairs idea was basically a bit shit and has left us lacking in the skilled workforce needed to run the country?

I'm torn on this one. I live in an EU country and here, as in many EU countries, you have to make a decision by at 13/14 yrs old as to whether you are going to go down a "technical" or "academic" route and from that point on your future career is defined, almost for life. And the education received from that point onwards is very targeted.

The pros of this system is that the technical side of things is done very well and is not seen as a "poor relation" to university, and people learn their trades properly, and you don't get people going in to catering or building for example without proper training. The standard of their work is high and the trades are respected. And pupils who are less academic have a defined path and purpose in school. And proper apprenticeships to continue on towards after school.

The cons are that education is less broad for both categories. The academics don't study anything practical and vice versa. There is no learning purely for the joy of it. And of course some pupils, often boys, are late developers who only get to grips with and understand the point of academic study around fifteen or so, by which time it's too late as they have already been streamed.

Just my personal view but I think it's become fashionable to blame Tony Blair for all of society's woes when he was one of the most able Prime Minister's this country has ever had. The current UK administration, full of jokers, is woeful in comparison. As is the opposition.

Yes the Iraq war was a travesty but people forget the febrile atmosphere in the west post 9-11, that 47 other countries signed up to the war as well as the UK, and that it was a lot harder for the UK to say "no" to America than France. TB could have said no but it would have put us in a potentially very vulnerable position in uncertain times.

And the decline of the British steel industry and other manufacturing sectors took place way before Blair & co. Germany managed to preserve theirs.

@mustlovegin

Technical universities could be the language to use?

There could perhaps be one year of general knowledge and two years of technical skills learning?

I have said this for a while, technical universities are the way forward definitely.

Hopefully they would then hold the same level of importance as academic degrees but also provide students with a trade.

The problem is now you have to be both academic and have practical skills. A relative was say he had a fantastic apprentice joiner working for him but the college wouldn’t pass him as he was struggling with the coursework. Do we really need qualified trades people to be able to write essays about their work?

Yes. we placed going to uni above all else. now a degree has just been devalued because so many people have them. I see jobs advertised now which require a degree..that in the 80's O levels would have been needed. and not good money either.

@hellywelly3

The problem is now you have to be both academic and have practical skills. A relative was say he had a fantastic apprentice joiner working for him but the college wouldn’t pass him as he was struggling with the coursework. Do we really need qualified trades people to be able to write essays about their work?

I think with everything becoming computer based, and the rise of technology such as 3D printers and robots, there is a need for the work force to be more highly skilled yes. Hopefully that will leave a niche for highly skilled artisans like your relative's employee?

A: it was Thatcher's dream - a service economy.
B: Tories have been in most of the time.
C: Asian countries like South Korea are thriving with much better education and high university entrance.
D: therefore it's not that simple.
E: we have just had very inept government for years

I'd rather people were valued for their skills and we had less people aspiring to get rich quick, be influences, overnight celebrities on inane TV programmes like love island. I think that gas much more to do with it than aiming for an educated work force.

(BTW Singapore has v well paid and educated teacher, civil servant etc and these roles are coveted, as does South korea).

*influencers

An old boyfriend was (probably still is) a time served joiner and cabinetmaker. Absolutely hated school, read and wrote at very basic level, pretty good at arithmetic mostly due to playing darts - looking back I think he's probably dyslexic. He left school at 16, got an apprenticeship and never looked back. Outstanding craftsman, own business, successful, wealthy.

Going through the grammar school system in the eighties about 8% of my cohort went to university. The rest are nurses, mechanics, graphic designer, electricians, farmers, dressmaker/designer, surveyors, own shops, a riding stable, a gardening business etc etc. Entrepreneurial, successful people with drive and ambition.

Degrees are being devalued to the extent that many employers are having to use their own entry testing to cherry pick the best students. Jobs which would have been open to school leavers previously now require a degree (fairly basic office jobs). I would be pretty miffed if I'd gone through a degree course and could look forward to a clerical role in the local council.

With the lack of lectures and contact time many current students seem to have to put up with (pre covid), even going to university for the experience and joy of learning seems to be a bit of a non starter.

Except, we are also massively short of university educated professionals as well, example, doctors

I think it's clear we are not talking about doctors when we refer to Mickey Mouse degrees

A: it was Thatcher's dream - a service economy

She may have been right at the time with the information she had, but the world evolves and leaders and society need to be flexible

C: Asian countries like South Korea are thriving with much better education and high university entrance

I doubt China and South Korea are promoting Mickey Mouse degrees.

@mustlovegin

A: it was Thatcher's dream - a service economy

She may have been right at the time with the information she had, but the world evolves and leaders and society need to be flexible

C: Asian countries like South Korea are thriving with much better education and high university entrance

I doubt China and South Korea are promoting Mickey Mouse degrees.

East Asian economies also support manufacturing and tech businesses which soak up their talent.

Started well before Blair. My DH did an engineering apprenticeship when he left school. In the mid to late 70's there were nearly 100 apprentices at the local college, when he did his in 1983 there were 5. Milk snatcher Thatcher strikes again

East Asian economies also support manufacturing and tech businesses which soak up their talent

Obviously we cannot or wouldn't want to compete/emulate them on certain areas, but we definitely could get closer to the Germany/Italy model if we wished

You lost me with mickey mouse degree graduates, I'm afraid.

I left school in Blair’s years. Wanted to go to Uni. But due to tuition fees, couldn’t afford it. Didn’t have any understanding of loans etc. Just knew I couldn’t afford accommodation, food and £3000 a year.

@hellywelly3

The problem is now you have to be both academic and have practical skills. A relative was say he had a fantastic apprentice joiner working for him but the college wouldn’t pass him as he was struggling with the coursework. Do we really need qualified trades people to be able to write essays about their work?

I've had numerous clients (in the trades) who've taken on apprentices and have been aghast as how little "practical" work they've done in college. Basically, the tradesperson has had to do all the "hands on" training whilst the apprentice has been writing essays and having lectures about diversity during their college day release.

@mustlovegin

A: it was Thatcher's dream - a service economy

She may have been right at the time with the information she had, but the world evolves and leaders and society need to be flexible

C: Asian countries like South Korea are thriving with much better education and high university entrance

I doubt China and South Korea are promoting Mickey Mouse degrees.

Blair/Brown carried on the same "dream" though, despite 13 years of opportunity to change direction.

@Lollipop444 I have said this for a while, technical universities are the way forward definitely.

You mean like the Polytechnics we used to have before they were turned into universities?

It's telling how many entrants to the adult education sector lack basic English and Maths skills which pretty much limits access to any chance of whatever you want to study.

If nothing else you need to be able to fill in the forms.

Going through the grammar school system in the eighties about 8% of my cohort went to university. The rest are nurses, mechanics, graphic designer, electricians, farmers, dressmaker/designer, surveyors, own shops, a riding stable, a gardening business etc etc. Entrepreneurial, successful people with drive and ambition

But l did a degree in design in the 80’s. So did lots of other people. There were no apprenticeships or trades. I’m
Not sure all the stuff l did on my degree could have just been randomly learnt. Some of it wa quite complex.

For those when other oysters are talking about mickey mose degrees, our local college offers Base mountain biking (think there's similar for surfing). Now, the course offers a bit of sports science stuff as well as mountain bike training, but surely a sports science degree with a module for your specialism would be more useful.

There are degrees which don't seem to require much intellectual rigour.

But l did a degree in design in the 80’s

Design is very broad. Architectural or graphic design may cover complex aspects, yes

Ffs, spelling would obviously be a very good choice for me..... Posters, not oysters, mouse not mose etc etc. Note to self - check work before publishing.

Oh look! Korean universities do Media and Communication. Tsk tsk. Those pesky Mickey Mouse Koreans.

globallearning.ucsc.edu/programs/ucsc-exchange/ku-courses.html

Korean universities do Media and Communication

Which amount to what % of degrees taught in Korea?