Thank god we don’t live in Sweden. AIBU?

[sw1v]

I was just reading in another thread that in Sweden, you are basically forced to send your babies into day care settings at the age of 1. Apparently 50% of 1 year olds are in full- time nurseries (very long days inc. parents’ commutes) and 95% by the time they are 2! Plus (unlike in the U.K.) there is apparently no minimum ratio for staff to children.

But what if you are a mother who simply doesn’t want to do this (or father)? I personally, would hate this. So how is it acceptable for ‘the state’ to be interfering in people’s personal spheres and family lives by making this ‘the societal norm.’ Is it because they are a high tax society and want more tax? Is this it? Well, it seems like an infringement on personal liberties to me (without wanting to sound too dramatic).

AIBU?

@NoJuliana

Anyone who thinks dropping off kids to preschool in the dark is a problem for us Swedish mammas has clearly never been to any council / school / sports club / residents association / ad infinitum event and been bombarded with nine million branded reflexes aka reflectors and mini torches to immediately attach to every part of ourselves, our offspring and our paraphernalia. People thing The Northern Lights are a space weather phenomenon - it’s not, it’s just mammor and pappor going too and from the preschool.

🤣😂🤣😂😎😎 So true. I have turned many a corner and had to slam on the brakes, being blinded by a moving mass of shiny objects

Oh no so I didn’t really see the Northern Lights on our holiday in Norway!

I don’t buy the happy-clappy daycare nirvana. It probably makes family life easier in some ways, but harder in others.

It certainly beats leaving them home alone while you go to work, I would have thought.

@ Boredzelda.I never heard of Mr. Or Mrs. Market.It is people who create a market system which they believe is working for everybody.It is this government who sets the rules for a market system.And no, I am not a Communist.we are all responsible for what we create on this planet.the planet is not responsible for our action.

@Sverige shiny objects.
You can see the average Swedish toddler from space.
Even 20 years ago when I was there toddlers and preschoolers were in dagis 9-4 ish. Lovely Montessori designed space with rooms for sleeping, great home cooked food and kind, very qualified staff. Many of those children are now parents themselves and as pp have said Sweees make friends at pre school they keep for life, so OP’s observation about social norms is right, it’s a good thing. Why wouldn’t you put your dc in in short day high quality cheap daycare?

The fact is the scandi model gives mums choice— at an affordable cost— a lot do 25 hours a week or so rather than full time. It isn’t compulsory!! The thing is I’ve lived all over the UK and found 2 main situations where you got a lot of stay at home mums— my home town which is a midlands mining town , cheap houses, lots of single mums, quite a lot of benefit claiming— I’ve also lived in a nice area of south west London— lots of high earning partners or good part time jobs— everywhere else I’ve lived in the UK that had a lot of young families involved a lot of women working to simply get by and using daycare and childminders and far less satisfactory arrangements than Sweden.

Yes I agree with that tara.

I can't say I ever found the morning routine particularly stressful when mine were little, though I did all the pickups and drop offs (because my husband didn't drive). We just developed a routine. It worked. Sometimes there were things that threw a spanner in the works, like roadworks, weather, car trouble. We dealt with it. A bit of pragmatism and fatalism goes a long way when you're a parent. I grew up in the Netherlands, so a bit of snow and ice doesn't throw me.

It was a little tougher when the kids were ill, but my husband took his share of days off to look after them. Other than the astronomical cost of childcare, I don't feel particularly hard done by as a working parent. Staying at home was definitely not for me, I was losing my mind with boredom by the time I went back to work.

Also, when it comes to the paid paternal leave, how does this work if they are self-employed? Who pays the dads this 80% in such cases - especially if they run their own companies or have multiple business interests and no defined ‘salary’ as such.

I can’t see how the paid paternal leave would have worked for us as he’s either abroad or his phone never stops ringing. When you have your own companies and thousands of people involved, it’s very difficult to just switch that off.

@sw1v of course it’s a nightmare with all the outdoor clothes. But it was a nightmare when I was a SAHM too, you’ve still got to leave the house. And yes of course the drag of the life puzzle is very hard, but it’s hard on all parents, not just working parents, surely. And tbh I know for sure that if I was having to try and juggle work in the UK, where I worked 7:00am to 19:00 most days and 7:00 to 21:30 the others, I wouldn’t have been able to do it without - I would have had to quit my job. The Swedish model guarantees that right to part time work, so people can have help to make things work a bit more smoothly. There’s a lot that’s good about Sweden, and a lot that’s not perfect by any means. But your insistence that we are all suffering at the hands of the state is just not true.

@sw1v In answer to your question about parental leave for people who are self employed, the answers are all here, just run them through Google translate. It’s not as simple as if you were employed by an employer, of course, but basically they suggest you manage it by using your parental leave flexibly and taking half days or half weeks etc, and divide it up rather than taking it all in one go. As per the question about the salary, they base the amount you’re allowed on your SGI which is the income amount your sick pay would be based on - they calculate that some way i don’t know how exactly but it depends on your typical earnings and how long you’ve had the business. www.forsakringskassan.se/privatpers/foretagare/foraldraforsakringen-for-dig-som-ar-foretagare

I’m just saying for me, I doubt day centres would have made life easier. When you have 4 kids and nobody to help you drop them off and pick them up from multiple schools and day centre locations, it’s easier to just let them mill at home and occupy each other than do all that palaver and a job inbetween! It’s all very well to say, get your husband to do drop offs and take time out, but what if they’re overseas? Many are. Or they just can’t do it. It just sounds like more stress for the mums to me.

@sw1v

Also, when it comes to the paid paternal leave, how does this work if they are self-employed? Who pays the dads this 80% in such cases - especially if they run their own companies or have multiple business interests and no defined ‘salary’ as such.

I can’t see how the paid paternal leave would have worked for us as he’s either abroad or his phone never stops ringing. When you have your own companies and thousands of people involved, it’s very difficult to just switch that off.

Again a quick google or asking your Swedish friends would give you the answer. This whole what if and what about.. is becoming ridiculous. You just come up with new things every time one of your "facts" is shown to be untrue or without context.

Self-employed persons contribute to the social security system with a separate tax and are eligible for the same leave benefits as employed persons.

Also I don’t think they would pay my husband anything. He has never had sick pay or annual leave entitlement or anything like that.

@sw1v

Oh my god, the comment about the dark was just an anecdote based on what Swedish mums (well some of the the ones I met) will tell you themselves. I can’t believe some people are earnestly feeling the need to explain the seasons to me! This place is mad sometimes.

The point is not “Newsflash - days are shorter in winter! ’ The point is, life is harder when you have to drag kids out in the dark and cold. Yes it also applies here in the U.K. (obviously ). I’ve had it myself. Bloody nightmare. There was a time I had 4 under the age of 9 and the cold and dark don’t help when you have to get them all up and dressed and in the car in the dark and rain to get the older ones to school. And then do it all again at 3.30 or whatever. Especially when they’ve got colds and all manner of viruses at this time of year. It’s all very well extolling the modern marvels of high quality daycentres, but the reality we all know is that modern life is stressful and pressured. And the dark and cold don’t help. London is bad enough and it rarely drops below zero here. So, in this sense, I don’t buy the happy-clappy daycare nirvana. It probably makes family life easier in some ways, but harder in others. We’ve all been there with whinging kids in the mornings and freezing cold and dark don’t exactly help. We have Canadian relatives and gi there a lot and what a malarkey that is in the mornings with snowsuits and snow boots. Yes you get used to it, but it’s a rigmarole nevertheless. Life is hard when you’re always on a schedule and having to drag kids around and do drop offs when you’d rather not and I know this as well as anyone.

(Awaits a genius to come on to earnestly explain why the days are longer in summer).

@sw1v

So you mean that you wouldn't leave the house at all in bad weather? That seems really unhealthy. As I had to get them dressed for the cold outdoors when I was a SAHM in Sweden as well. Although my kids were able to do their own snowsuits, boots, gloves and hats from age 2.

TBH I prefer a nice sunny but snowy -10C day than a dismal +2C rainy and foggy day in London.

@sw1v

I’m not slagging off Sweden fgs. I’m just saying (if these stats are true) thank god I don’t feel pressured to have my kids in full-time day care at the age if 2. I mean, fair enough if people want to or need to do this (that’s personal choice), but 95% is pretty much all babies and surely, if this is the case, you would feel like a societal weirdo just having your own children at home. At age 2!

But they aren't true though

“Again a quick google or asking your Swedish friends would give you the answer“

Could you not say that about nearly all the threads in here?

Modern life isn’t particularly stressful for me - and wasn’t during my nursery drop off years either.
You can’t choose a husband working away and 4 under 9 and blame a bit of dashing around in the morning on “modern life”.

@sw1v Your husband would be entitled to the leave and benefits. Whether he chose to take it or not would be a decision for the family to make i guess, like it is for every family.

@sw1v

“Again a quick google or asking your Swedish friends would give you the answer“

Could you not say that about nearly all the threads in here?

Just the ones were posters insist they're right and use made up "facts" or half truths to justify that opinion.

The 80% parental leave in Sweden is not paid by the employer, itäs paid by the state.

Also how parental leave is organised is decided by the parents, not the employer. You have until your child is 8 (I think) to take all your days and you have to give your employer a months notice, but it is entirely up to the parents. Some use them all up straight away, others use them to do reduced hours, I know others who've held onto them and used them for extended holidays when the kids are older.

You don't have to use any of your holiday entitlement or parental leave days when your child is sick as you're also entitled to paid time off to care for them. Again paid by the state not the employer.

Surely there must be a cap on the benefits the state sound would pay out though in terms of paternal leave?

@sw1v

Also, when it comes to the paid paternal leave, how does this work if they are self-employed? Who pays the dads this 80% in such cases - especially if they run their own companies or have multiple business interests and no defined ‘salary’ as such.

I can’t see how the paid paternal leave would have worked for us as he’s either abroad or his phone never stops ringing. When you have your own companies and thousands of people involved, it’s very difficult to just switch that off.

If you have your own business it's based on which type of company, which employment form and the level of social insurance you pay into.

You can also take parental leave in 2 hour chunks (25%) - so most parents can take some. DH is a hospital consultant and I was a student but he took a day each week from when I went to college until the kids were 6 and 4. The kids really benefited from the time spent with him.

Loads of people don’t have an employer - they are self-employed, so if you take “your days” the only person who suffers is you.

🐕&🦴😏