Thank god we don’t live in Sweden. AIBU?

[sw1v]

I was just reading in another thread that in Sweden, you are basically forced to send your babies into day care settings at the age of 1. Apparently 50% of 1 year olds are in full- time nurseries (very long days inc. parents’ commutes) and 95% by the time they are 2! Plus (unlike in the U.K.) there is apparently no minimum ratio for staff to children.

But what if you are a mother who simply doesn’t want to do this (or father)? I personally, would hate this. So how is it acceptable for ‘the state’ to be interfering in people’s personal spheres and family lives by making this ‘the societal norm.’ Is it because they are a high tax society and want more tax? Is this it? Well, it seems like an infringement on personal liberties to me (without wanting to sound too dramatic).

AIBU?

France 99% of women go back to work at 13 weeks.

Pretty sure this is codswallop

The childcare is decent and quite cheap though. So maybe that is why 50% of people use it. Plus I think parents get more help from the government financially.

Unlike here, where most parents are forced to pay extortionate fees and not see much of their kids, as they still need to work to survive on what they have due to the cost of living, or give up their careers completely/take an extended break as it isn't financially viable. There is little balance. I feel like I don't have a choice but to work FT, I had to to survive. People also rely on family a lot for childcare as a consequence of this too.

Surely cheaper childcare means more choice? I would take the Swedish way over the British. There seems to be more support for families.

@sw1v

Oh fgs. I do live in an area with quite a lot of Swedish expats. There are also a lot of playgroup activities in the day and of course you meet other mums in this way. I had 4 children. We currently rent a house to a Swedish family and have done previously. So no, that wasn’t top of my mind yesterday as it’s not particularly recent, but of course you socialise with other mums out and about when you have young kids.

No comment on the dark situation?

Not the first statement you made without looking into it further. Just like forced, just like full time etc.

I can’t even be bothered to respond to the explanations about ‘the dark and I’ve no idea why assume you need to tell he this . What would you like me to say? Er..., well done

Thank goodness,most of us have a choice and I am sure,we all make decisions,we believe is best four the child.

The thing is, most of us do not have a choice. We live in a part of the world where, rightly or wrongly, two incomes are usually needed to support a reasonable standard of living. The exceptions are the very rich, who always have choices wherever they are. The rest of us have to survive and it really isn't about choice at all.

And even if you have a choice to not work, there are risks to be evaluated - being financially dependent on a single income is risky for the entire family (what if the wage earner dies or becomes incapacitated?) and also for the non-working partner (what if the wage earner ends the relationship and walks away from supporting their children, or what if the wage earner is abusive?). These are all things to be considered when making a decision to work or not.

The model of a stay at home parent who devoted 100% of their time to parenting is a very recent development, by the way. Let's not get all misty-eyed about 'the good old days' when (usually) women stayed at home and everything was great. For most people, it wasn't.

@Andwander your example is on the extreme side. Not many people put 6 month olds into full-time nursery. If they do, perhaps they have no choice financially? Or perhaps it going back to FT work is what the mother needs for her own well-being? That does matter too, believe it or not. Or are we in an episode of The Handmaid's Tale?

‘Sweden is a country with big differences in daylight. In the far north, the sun does not set at all in June and there is darkness around the clock in January. However, in January in Stockholm the sun rises at 8:47 am and sets at 2:55 pm, while in July the sun rises at 3:40 am and sets 10:00 pm.’

Well I never .

An interesting article on the French take on motherhood, if anyone fancies a read (no paywall): www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.marieclaire.co.uk/life/living-france-reshaped-parenting-666490/amp

Oh gosh OP. When did mumsnet become your irrefutable source of news?

@sw1v

‘Sweden is a country with big differences in daylight. In the far north, the sun does not set at all in June and there is darkness around the clock in January. However, in January in Stockholm the sun rises at 8:47 am and sets at 2:55 pm, while in July the sun rises at 3:40 am and sets 10:00 pm.’

Well I never .

I find it very strange that you socialise with so many swedish women , and instead of asking them you form opinions from sensationalised sound bites instead of asking them for clarification or further information.

[quote EmmaOvary]@Andwander your example is on the extreme side. Not many people put 6 month olds into full-time nursery. If they do, perhaps they have no choice financially? Or perhaps it going back to FT work is what the mother needs for her own well-being? That does matter too, believe it or not. Or are we in an episode of The Handmaid's Tale? [/quote]
I put my DDs in full time nursery at 6 months. They're 18 and 20 - when they were born, you got 6 weeks at 90% of pay plus another 12 weeks at either SMP, or if you were lucky and public sector (I was), half pay. After that, it was all unpaid until up to a year, when you had to go back. I would have loved to go back 3 days a week and financially that would have been feasible, but this was before there were such things as flexible working requests - they came in when DD1 was 6. So yes, people had to work financially. My husband wasn't a high earner and we had to pay for luxuries like food, heating and a roof over our heads. If that sounds snarky, it is - back then there were so many comments about how families with double incomes only did it to get luxuries like second cars and foreign holidays.

These days I imagine fewer people put their babies into FT nursery when very young because it's easier to go part time. That's great and is as it should be. But in countries like the UK, there is still very little choice about working or not working.

@sw1v

‘Sweden is a country with big differences in daylight. In the far north, the sun does not set at all in June and there is darkness around the clock in January. However, in January in Stockholm the sun rises at 8:47 am and sets at 2:55 pm, while in July the sun rises at 3:40 am and sets 10:00 pm.’

Well I never .

What do they teach people in school these days? Not a criticism of you, OP, but bloody hell, I thought this was routine stuff.

Oh my god.

Of course children are dropped off and collected in the dark. Even in the U.K. it gets dark early and more so in more northern countries like Sweden. My DT’s were dropped off at nursery around 8am and collected between 5 and 6.

My daughter gets a taxi to school, we’re in Scotland, she’s also picked up and dropped off in the dark in the winter. Maybe I should be rethinking if school is the best thing for her…..

I’m interested though, @sw1v why you started this thread before chatting about it to your multiple Swedish mother friends. Who would have put you straight. Just… unusual.

Agreed. Also seems unlikely people from Sweden complaining about winter darkness being an issue when they would be referring to kids being dropped off just before 9 and picked up just before 4. Hardly a big day at nursery.

@ILoveMyMonkey

It’s not mandatory, it’s a choice you have. It enables women (and men) to have a choice about returning to work by providing affordable nursery choices - something not available to all here in the UK. They also provide 480 days of paid parental leave when a baby is born - that’s an amazing amount of time - and a large proportion of that is on 80% of their salary.

And that leave can be equally shared - AND often is.

My friend is Swedish, her husband French, they lived in Sweden when her eldest was born, she took the first 9 months off, he took the second 9 months off. Said it was incredible for all of them!

But the uk is not that far behind really - 43% for 0-2 years and 89% for 3-4 years..

The use of formal childcare among families with only pre-school children remained stable between 2017 and 2018 (71% in both years). Reflecting this pattern at the child-level (rather than the family-level), the proportion of children aged 0 to 2 receiving formal childcare remained broadly stable between 2017 and 2018 (43% and 40% respectively), as did the proportions for children aged 3 to 4 (89% and 88% respectively).

@pointythings.you are right,british mums and dads often dont have a choice.this is true because our government created a consumer society which superficially makes you believe you have choices,but in reality creates a hamsterwheel for people.But you can opt out of this model.I live in a housing coop where people have similar values in bringing up a child and I am happy to co-parent with other people here.I made that choice and I am not rich, middle class or god forbid a Tory.

because our government created a consumer society which superficially makes you believe you have choices

I think the market did this rather than the government.

Andwander that's great for you. I'd absolutely hate it. I did communal living when I was a student and I'm not doing it again.

@sw1v - From conversation with Swedish mums here though (mainly from Stockholm) they have told me that, particularly in winter, babies are dropped off in the dark and collected in the dark and most people believe this is in the best interests of children and society.

LOL - you make this sound like horrible long days but have you not considered that in Sweden in winter it does not really get light until 9-10am and is dark by 1.30-2.30pm plus it will be even darker on cloudy, rainy days (and places in the far North get no proper daylight between November and February but 24hour daylight from May to July

From Sunday it will be getting dark here around 4pm when the clocks go back

Lucky OP does not live in Siglufjörður (Northern Iceland where they film the thriller Trapped) where they have no sun at all for 74 days each year (mid November until late January) and even the children of SAHM have to cope with no proper daylight

Anyone who thinks dropping off kids to preschool in the dark is a problem for us Swedish mammas has clearly never been to any council / school / sports club / residents association / ad infinitum event and been bombarded with nine million branded reflexes aka reflectors and mini torches to immediately attach to every part of ourselves, our offspring and our paraphernalia. People thing The Northern Lights are a space weather phenomenon - it’s not, it’s just mammor and pappor going too and from the preschool.

*think

@pointythings.I have my own front door with own kitchen and livingspace.There is one communal space for meetings,washing machine,tools etc to share if you want to.Believe me, I did the shared household thingy too when I was younger and no thanks not any more.Most people now opt for co-housing/co operative,where you have your own living space .this kind of living is particularly good for single parents and also single older people,as people live in these kind of set ups who want to support other people and need support too.it is an alternative to the rat race.

Oh my god, the comment about the dark was just an anecdote based on what Swedish mums (well some of the the ones I met) will tell you themselves. I can’t believe some people are earnestly feeling the need to explain the seasons to me! This place is mad sometimes.

The point is not “Newsflash - days are shorter in winter! ’ The point is, life is harder when you have to drag kids out in the dark and cold. Yes it also applies here in the U.K. (obviously ). I’ve had it myself. Bloody nightmare. There was a time I had 4 under the age of 9 and the cold and dark don’t help when you have to get them all up and dressed and in the car in the dark and rain to get the older ones to school. And then do it all again at 3.30 or whatever. Especially when they’ve got colds and all manner of viruses at this time of year. It’s all very well extolling the modern marvels of high quality daycentres, but the reality we all know is that modern life is stressful and pressured. And the dark and cold don’t help. London is bad enough and it rarely drops below zero here. So, in this sense, I don’t buy the happy-clappy daycare nirvana. It probably makes family life easier in some ways, but harder in others. We’ve all been there with whinging kids in the mornings and freezing cold and dark don’t exactly help. We have Canadian relatives and gi there a lot and what a malarkey that is in the mornings with snowsuits and snow boots. Yes you get used to it, but it’s a rigmarole nevertheless. Life is hard when you’re always on a schedule and having to drag kids around and do drop offs when you’d rather not and I know this as well as anyone.

(Awaits a genius to come on to earnestly explain why the days are longer in summer).