Thank god we don’t live in Sweden. AIBU?

[sw1v]

I was just reading in another thread that in Sweden, you are basically forced to send your babies into day care settings at the age of 1. Apparently 50% of 1 year olds are in full- time nurseries (very long days inc. parents’ commutes) and 95% by the time they are 2! Plus (unlike in the U.K.) there is apparently no minimum ratio for staff to children.

But what if you are a mother who simply doesn’t want to do this (or father)? I personally, would hate this. So how is it acceptable for ‘the state’ to be interfering in people’s personal spheres and family lives by making this ‘the societal norm.’ Is it because they are a high tax society and want more tax? Is this it? Well, it seems like an infringement on personal liberties to me (without wanting to sound too dramatic).

AIBU?

@FindingMeno

I'd move to Sweden in the blink of an eye. Better to have options than the shitshow we have.

Why haven't you gone yet? Or is it only since Brexit you felt this way and you can't go now?

@DressedUpAtAnIvy

Where did you read this, Xenophobia Today?

Ok this was a little but harsh but it was a witty response!

I think OP misused the word ' forced' , when she meant the norm in society and set up encourages that.

@whippetmug much the same reasons as why my children had to go to childcare by 5 months.
Financial.
There's more than one way that women can't make the choice to stay at home with their children.

@MarshaBradyo

No not sarcasm, just stating that if you are at home with your under 3yr old then the chances of them being able to play with other under 3yr olds are limited as a lot of children are in childcare.

Did you find this the case? Or did you do nursery

Really there are loads of options. And loads of dc at the park daily.

"Lots of options" is not a term I would use for life on Sweden🤔 There were in fact very few options when my DC's were young and we were usually the only ones in the park. Possibly a huge difference from towns and cities too.

Sveridge I think it was a cross message there. I’m in the U.K. so my initial post was based on my experience here.

I can see it would be different there.

@WeDidntMeanToGoToSea

I think there's just as much social 'policing' in the UK, tbh, but it goes on in other ways. Certainly latterly, government appears to communicate with people via almost propaganda-like manipulation. Look at the way public messaging has very deliberately been used to elicit the behaviour desired at the particular time in relation to Covid - first scaring people to death to get them to stay at home, then flipping the switch to a hearty 'back to work/spending now, chaps'.

And then there are specific elements of social 'policing' such as school uniform - OK, that one originates more in class consciousness than in conformity, but I can tell you Germans find it ridiculously quaint to start with and respond with increasing horror when they realise the harshness and sheer targeting of resources (time, effort, hassle) that go into policing compliance with it. I also think a lot of British people are kept societally in line by the threat of being mocked. The UK is superficially better at 'diversity' than some northern European states but you only have to scratch the surface to find quite a lot of unpleasantness underneath (the vitriol on here at supposedly 'chavvy'/foreign baby names and the incredible fact that people are still bullied for having red hair, and this is somehow accepted, spring to mind).

You won't get an argument me on this Gov's approach to propaganda and people still believe - it's mind blowing and the school uniform thing has reached comic extremes. To rely on a type of clothing to address all our woes with educating young people - discipline issues, poor results, inequality, poverty, bullying is laughably British but the people still believe - their not daft - it's cheaper than actually doing something - we love a bit of veneer to hide the dirty laundry.

[quote FindingMeno]@whippetmug much the same reasons as why my children had to go to childcare by 5 months.
Financial.
There's more than one way that women can't make the choice to stay at home with their children.[/quote]
Likely you wouldn't have found a job anyway - being a foreigner 'n all.

@MarshaBradyo

Sveridge I think it was a cross message there. I’m in the U.K. so my initial post was based on my experience here.

I can see it would be different there.

You make much more sense now 😁

Can I ask, other than the childcare, what makes Sweden so appealing to you?
It can't be the meatballs as you can get them in IKEA😁

It’s truly hilarious that you think all the women in Britain are exercising a truly free choice, devoid of all societal pressure and government influence, when determining at what point they will return to work after having a child.

You just seem to have reached a lot of really half-baked conclusions on the situation both in the UK and in Sweden but for some reason feel very convinced that your ill-informed opinions are correct. It’s a bit embarrassing to read.

"How long is a day for a child in nursery compared to a child not in nursery????"

Interesting question. I believe they are both 24 hours.

Haha, basically forced. Do you always listen to Russian trolls?

Was it really necessary to counter xenophobia with xenophobia?

I don't disbelieve Whippet's experiences at all, I think Sweden can be immensely difficult to move to as a foreigner, and as a poor student stuck in Stockholm in the 90s... brrrr. I don't recognise the passport thing at all though. Wondering if someone misinformed you and that would just have been the final turd in the fan for you I suppose!).

I think you'd have had a much more positive experience as a student in Uppsala or Lund, as you say, and likely your recollections would be more of the "they're odd people but I got on with a good few alright and went to some great parties". ;) I think it can be very tough for Irish people, the culture is very different and could certainly exacerbate feelings of loneliness. A writer, forget who, wrote about a foreigner coming to Uppsala on Walpurgis (last of April) and being blown away by the atmosphere! the party! the joy and friendliness of the people! and deciding to stay. Come November they didn't know what had hit them, lmao.

It's ridiculous to assume Sweden is some sort of equalitarian paradise of course. I direct you all to the recent UN criticism as regards women's rights www.ungeneva.org/en/news-media/meeting-summary/2021/10/la-suede-joue-un-role-de-chef-de-file-en-matiere-degalite-entre

I'd also like to say that the discussion on how young children in preschool should be and for how long is ongoing here in Sweden. And I think it's naive to refuse to admit that some children are in preschool because it's convenient to parents who get "me" time. Preschools are not all little cozy family-run units, they can be very large and feel quite impersonal (parents in bigger cities/towns might therefore shop around a lot before deciding). (But for the record, they're supposed to be a resource for parents who need childcare while they are working. Ie you're not even supposed to swing by the shop on your way home before picking up the kids, you're supposed to pick them up first and shop after.)

There's definitely a lot to discuss about how much we actually permit individual needs to influence childcare and personal life. The Swedish system is sort of rigged so that whether it's the best choice for your individual child or not at that particular time, you will be putting them in childcare at 18-24 months of age. The UK system is rigged so that children are put in uniforms at the age of four and sent to school, , whether the child is really emotionally able for that sort of structure or not, with little opportunity for unstructured play during those hours and very little outdoor space. I mean we all operate within the constraints of society, none of us are truly free.

And this is why the Swedish system is organised so that almost exclusively women can't as easily "freely choose because it just happens to be the best thing for our family" to be home with children for about ten years of their working years. It's set up so that in theory women can work full time. In practice women have still been doing most of the unpaid household labour and we have had a culture of almost exclusively women "freely choosing because it just happens to be the best thing for our family and after all he earns more money" to work 75%. Change happens slowly and other incentives are probably needed. Privately outsourcing domestic labour to other women (nannies, cleaners) doesn't solve THAT problem.

The real issue here is the absolute flaming cost of childcare in this country. When you compare it to other European countries it makes me feel like a mug that I'm paying out nearly a grand a month for 4 days a week nursery provision. In France, it's on a sliding scale according to income but I believe it is capped at around £150 a month for the highest earners. Much less for many. We're basically adding on another mortgage or rent for every new parent, often making it pointless to work. No wonder we have a 'brain drain' of women.

@WhiskyXray

Haha, basically forced. Do you always listen to Russian trolls?

Was it really necessary to counter xenophobia with xenophobia?

Sorry, you are right in that. I am quite new here, how do I remove the post?

Is it the state or the culture? I know from my relatives (and from wandering round New York with babies) that parents are expected by their companies to return to work when their babies are six weeks old. My friend was very excited as she transgresively managed to delay till three months. (I also remember being much frowned upon by the nannies in the park who clearly thought I was a shite Nanny (as opposed to a laissez faire mum).)

No need to remove IMO @Soffana. The rest of your post was interesting. 👍

@Parker231.Nothing is ever black and white.Of course there are very you g kids who thrive and do well even so they have been in nursery from 6month old.And of course you get kids who really struggle later in life who had mum or dad all the time.But if you read any Attachment theory(John Bowlby was the first psychologist who researched kid behaviour and early separation) you find there is a general agreement,that early separation from mum or dad is not ideal for a child.Of course sometimes,there is no other option than to give your very young child to nursery.

Soffana The state pays for childcare because you pay taxes not out of the goodness of their hearts 😁
Once children are in the system then both parents can get back to their jobs/careers. So the state is very generous when your family are young so you can get back to work to pay the taxes needed to subsidise the generous childcare🤪
There is a cradle to grave mentality here. If you look after the state, the state looks after you.

why are things do different in Sweden. How much is personal choice and how much is state intervention (direct or indirect).

Laughing at the suggestion that the U.K. government leaves the choice of whether to be a SAHM to parents. Sweden encourages women back to the workplace by properly funding childcare and making it a high quality setting. The U.K. “encourages” it by cutting benefits to a level where parents can’t afford to stay at home, cutting funding to nurseries so they have to hire minimum wage teenagers with few qualifications, and failing to support businesses to move to a more flexible working pattern to support parents. So, ask yourself, who is being “forced” in that scenario?

Why are over 90% if 2 year-olds in daycare in Sweden when they are not in the U.K.? What is different and what underlies this?

I’m assuming the obvious answer of “cost” hasn’t occurred to you? Also, using “daycare” as the comparative number skews the argument. In 2017, only 1 in 11 mothers were SAHM. That is a similar statistic. And it shows that rather than having children in high quality daycare, they are being looked after by someone else be it family or friends or childminders.

Here’s another stat. 98% of 3 and 4 year olds were registered for their (not mandatory) funded nursery place in Scotland in 2019. Sounds similar to the Swedish numbers.

Things aren’t so different in terms of the numbers but are massively different in the number of parents struggling to afford childcare.

course sometimes,there is no other option than to give your very young child to nursery.

Very, very pejorative language there. I didn’t “give” my child to nursery.

But if you read any Attachment theory(John Bowlby was the first psychologist who researched kid behaviour and early separation) you find there is a general agreement,that early separation from mum or dad is not ideal for a child.

And of the read the whole plethora of research from people who don’t have a “parenting method” to sell, you’ll find it shown there isn’t a whole load of difference between children who have been at nursery as babies and those who weren’t.

I think it’s brilliant that excellent quality childcare is highly subsidised there allowing parents THAT CHOOSE TO to return to work.

Consequently It’s more normal for parents in Sweden to work more hours than their counterparts in the UK but im pretty sure that overall they actually work less hours. They pay higher taxes but have far better public services. I think it sounds fab. Nobody is forced to do anything but it is probably very difficult to be a long time sahp in Sweden.

[quote Andwander]@Vbree.I lived opposite a nursery and observed every morning stressed out parents dragging crying,tired very very young children at 7am to nursery.it is a myth,they are better socialised.in Switzerland,chikdren go to Kindergarten when 5 and to schook with 6 years old.Much much less problems in school .If you read any professional report on child development,you find that early separation is a problem later for the child.[/quote]
Every third child in Switzerland attends a day care centre. Places are expensive, however, so the cantons are going to look into ways of reducing the costs for parents.
This content was published on October 4, 2020 - 17:48
October 4, 2020 - 17:48
Keystone-SDA/ts
Other languages: 2 (EN original)

Around 3,200 childcare facilities and 100,000 childcare places exist in Switzerland, according to a report, published on Sunday by the Conference of Cantonal Directors of Social Affairs, which shows the situation in Switzerland as a whole for the first time. Based on these figures, the conference estimates that 180,000-200,000 children are regularly looked after in a crèche.

Also Switzerland has one of the most expensive childcare costs in the world, and the shortest maternity leave, coming second after the US.

It's not all sunshine and rainbows.

The real issue here is the absolute flaming cost of childcare in this country. When you compare it to other European countries it makes me feel like a mug that I'm paying out nearly a grand a month for 4 days a week nursery provision.

I agree with the sentiment here @EmmaOvary, but I think we need to be careful when talking about the cost of childcare. I think the price for childcare is actually on the low side. Given nurseries can only afford to provide the service by paying low wages and there is a massive variance in quality, I don’t think they are paid enough to provide what should be a quality service looking after our children. But if they charged an appropriate cost for that service, fewer would be able to access it. The actual problem is the lack of subsidy available to families for good quality child care.

I’m not sure of the right way to subsidise families for it, but I’d favour a “student loans” type situation where parents can borrow the cost of childcare and pay it back over their working life, with a sliding scale for payments based on salary, wiping the debt after 30 years so those on low incomes would likely never pay back the full amount borrowed.