Thank god we don’t live in Sweden. AIBU?

[sw1v]

I was just reading in another thread that in Sweden, you are basically forced to send your babies into day care settings at the age of 1. Apparently 50% of 1 year olds are in full- time nurseries (very long days inc. parents’ commutes) and 95% by the time they are 2! Plus (unlike in the U.K.) there is apparently no minimum ratio for staff to children.

But what if you are a mother who simply doesn’t want to do this (or father)? I personally, would hate this. So how is it acceptable for ‘the state’ to be interfering in people’s personal spheres and family lives by making this ‘the societal norm.’ Is it because they are a high tax society and want more tax? Is this it? Well, it seems like an infringement on personal liberties to me (without wanting to sound too dramatic).

AIBU?

[quote JesusIsAnyNameFree]@whippetmug

It's pretty well known the immediate areas around the city are quite full of crime. I went to different parts of Sweden though.

I never experienced any guarded or suspicious behaviour.[/quote]
Do you mean the suburbs? I suspect that’s where the university put students but it wasn’t the fear of crime that put me off Stockholm - even the police were incredibly defensive and aggressive in their manner. The archipelagos outside Stockholm were not accessible to non passport holders and were perceived as quite exclusive.
It sounds like you lived a bit of a privileged existence whilst there?

@whippetmug

Yes, the suburbs.

Can I ask what you mean by not accessible to non passport holders? We went with work, but I can't remember bringing a passport with me..

I suppose I did.

I grew up in Norway (not dissimilar, although Swede’s thinks Norwegians are all mad). I also worked in a company with a big Swedish arm and travelled there regularly.

Scandinavia is an amazing place to raise kids, very family friendly and way better than here. Yes taxes are higher, cost of living is higher, but so are wages and childcare is subsidised, so swings and roundabouts.

I agree with you,sending a 1 year old to nursery is not good for a child.Just look at another thread on MN,where I got alot of hate from people saying this.Maybe they should move to Sweden.

Reading this with great interest from Germany, which has many similarities to the Swedish system. The detailed description by the nursery teacher of a Swedish preschool day sounds very similar to my dd's kindergarten (and those of my older sons when they were that age). Dd has an entitlement of up to 8 hours a day - she's usually in nearer 6 or 7 (I drop her by 9 and pick her up between 3 and just before 4 depending on what's going on). Arrangements are different in different federal states but in our state, anyone can send their children, from age 1 (there is a nationwide legal entitlement to a daycare place of some kind from age 1), whether they work or not, for up to 6h/day - if you want longer you prove your hours (as I am self-employed that entailed me writing a letter on my headed paper). Dd is in her final kindergarten year so her place is free, food aside - this is the case in a lot of states and I think in Berlin kindergarten is entirely free from age 3. When we were paying for her the most we paid was around 230 euro/month for a 6-hour place - that reduced to under 150 when she turned 3 as the parental contribution for 0-3 care is higher than for 3-6. And we were in the highest income band (which stopped at 50000 euro pa); if we'd had less income it would have been a lot less. Ratios are a bit high in our part of Germany (interesting to hear that's an issue in Sweden too) but I've never known the care not to be decent. Early years teachers all do a quite intense apprenticeship-type training course involving a lot of practical experience and theoretical reflection and finishing with state accreditation, which they need to work.

In some more suburban/rural parts of some states where SAH is more culturally entrenched the provision isn't quite as great - one thing that I often hear of is kindergarten closing over lunch, which of course makes working really difficult. But there is usually an option to send your child somewhere that's open all day.

Parental leave is paid for a total of 14 months at 67% of previous salary. If only one parent takes it, you only get 12 months - i.e. the other parent has to take a minimum of 2 months to get the full entitlement. You can split it any way you choose, though the mother (unless self-employed) has to take the first 8 weeks as employers are prohibited from employing a mother during that period. The first 8 weeks are on full pay and it goes up to 12 weeks with a prem or multiple birth. You can also opt to halve the monthly payments and spread them over twice as long a period. And if you choose to work up to 30 hours/week rather than taking the time off completely, you get 67 % of the money you lose by reducing your hours. You also have the right to take up to another 2 years of (unpaid) time off until the child's eighth birthday. Each parent gets 5 (or 10, not sure) sick days off/year for their child and about 80% of their pay is coveredby statutory health insurance. Most employers also give a certain number of days on top of that.

I quite frankly don't know how parents (specifically mothers) in the UK manage.

Thank god we don’t live in Sweden.

LOL

Apparently, Sweden is a brilliant place to live. What an ignorant statement.

*67 % of net salary/income (so self-employed people, students etc get it too)

Being swedish and being raised in Sweden is not the same as being a foreigner living in Sweden.
Looking at one aspect of a county, childcare in this instance, and declaring that country is wonderful is quite shortsighted.
Sweden is not the garden of eden, it is not a utopia either. It has good things and bad. Swedish subsidized childcare is great, compared to the astronomical costs in the UK though.

@Andwander

I agree with you,sending a 1 year old to nursery is not good for a child.Just look at another thread on MN,where I got alot of hate from people saying this.Maybe they should move to Sweden.

Why is it not good for the child? Fair enough not everyone wants to send their child full time but most children who go to some form of childcare seem a lot happier and more socialised. I think staying at home entirely is more for the benefit of the mother than the child.

The Swedish nursery provisions and cost sound amazing but how do you keep your career progressing? I went back to work full time when DT’s were six months so I could continue with my career.

Why is it not good for the child? Fair enough not everyone wants to send their child full time but most children who go to some form of childcare seem a lot happier and more socialised. I think staying at home entirely is more for the benefit of the mother than the child.

What age are you talking about?

I can see this set up is better for mothers but I don’t agree people who give one to one home care are doing it for themselves, they likely can see the dc wants it.

By age, say, three I get the socialisation argument but it’s easy enough for them to play with other dc before then.

@Vbree.I lived opposite a nursery and observed every morning stressed out parents dragging crying,tired very very young children at 7am to nursery.it is a myth,they are better socialised.in Switzerland,chikdren go to Kindergarten when 5 and to schook with 6 years old.Much much less problems in school .If you read any professional report on child development,you find that early separation is a problem later for the child.

@Andwander - do you have the evidence? My DT’s spent happy years at their nursery from starting at six months old. They are now 22 - happy young adults who are flourishing. No problems.

@MarshaBradyo

I can see this set up is better for mothers but I don’t agree people who give one to one home care are doing it for themselves, they likely can see the dc wants it.

By age, say, three I get the socialisation argument but it’s easy enough for them to play with other dc before then.

Most children are in some form of childcare from 12-18 months so any child not in childcare won't have any other children play with🥴

@Hemskis

I'm Swedish and this is not true. Childcare is good quality and subsidied by the government to enable you to work. If you are unemployed you are entitled to a certain number of hours. Nursery hours are restricted to your work hours so you can't pay extra to have some free time. Childcare staff are well educated. Parental leave is excellent and often shared by both parents and children generally don't attend nursery when younger than a year.

You can be a stay at home mum if you like, noone will stop you, but it's not a common choice.

Did you read this post, OP?

(This thread is the best example I have ever read of the problems with 'facts' and social media.)

Most children are in some form of childcare from 12-18 months so any child not in childcare won't have any other children play with🥴

Really? Are you being sarcastic. Where are you talking about, I don’t recognise this at all.

[quote JesusIsAnyNameFree]@whippetmug

Yes, the suburbs.

Can I ask what you mean by not accessible to non passport holders? We went with work, but I can't remember bringing a passport with me..

I suppose I did.[/quote]
I'm referring to the mid 90's and it's possible and even probable that they have changed the law by now. It was at the time considered a national security risk to let a non passport holder on the islands - we were very much seens as others. You were lucky not to have to stay in the suburbs, soulless and dead (for a student area that's quite something) - I remember getting harrassed by the police for just waiting for friend outside the train station in central Stockholm and I grew up in Northern Ireland so I was quite used to a police state but they were particularly menacing - it was a seriously screwy place to live - never encountered anywhere as bad. I wouldn't consider having to put up with the xenophobia and straight jacket culture within Sweden just to get cheaper childcare - but maybe that's changed to. I can't decide with it was far left or far right , it had elements of both- but it did not feel in any way liberal - so if you like that kind of thing it would probably suit you.

@MarshaBradyo

Most children are in some form of childcare from 12-18 months so any child not in childcare won't have any other children play with🥴

Really? Are you being sarcastic. Where are you talking about, I don’t recognise this at all.

Every single one of my friend worked by the tome their child was 18 months old, whether it was full time of part time. Not everyone can or wants to be a full time SAHM.

Every single one of my friend worked by the tome their child was 18 months old, whether it was full time of part time. Not everyone can or wants to be a full time SAHM.

Yes that’s great

It still doesn’t mean there was a lack of socialisation for my dc when they were under three

The playgroup had a wait list that meant you had to get referred. I also met people at equivalent of NCT and we’d meet up often. It really wasn’t the case it was empty of other dc. It’s a strange take.

@MarshaBradyo

Most children are in some form of childcare from 12-18 months so any child not in childcare won't have any other children play with🥴

Really? Are you being sarcastic. Where are you talking about, I don’t recognise this at all.

No not sarcasm, just stating that if you are at home with your under 3yr old then the chances of them being able to play with other under 3yr olds are limited as a lot of children are in childcare.

I'd move to Sweden in the blink of an eye.
Better to have options than the shitshow we have.

No not sarcasm, just stating that if you are at home with your under 3yr old then the chances of them being able to play with other under 3yr olds are limited as a lot of children are in childcare.

Did you find this the case? Or did you do nursery

Really there are loads of options. And loads of dc at the park daily.

@Andwander

I agree with you,sending a 1 year old to nursery is not good for a child.Just look at another thread on MN,where I got alot of hate from people saying this.Maybe they should move to Sweden.

The research evidence does not support your statement. And saying 'maybe they should move to' [wherever] is pretty damn awful behaviour.

I think there's just as much social 'policing' in the UK, tbh, but it goes on in other ways. Certainly latterly, government appears to communicate with people via almost propaganda-like manipulation. Look at the way public messaging has very deliberately been used to elicit the behaviour desired at the particular time in relation to Covid - first scaring people to death to get them to stay at home, then flipping the switch to a hearty 'back to work/spending now, chaps'.

And then there are specific elements of social 'policing' such as school uniform - OK, that one originates more in class consciousness than in conformity, but I can tell you Germans find it ridiculously quaint to start with and respond with increasing horror when they realise the harshness and sheer targeting of resources (time, effort, hassle) that go into policing compliance with it. I also think a lot of British people are kept societally in line by the threat of being mocked. The UK is superficially better at 'diversity' than some northern European states but you only have to scratch the surface to find quite a lot of unpleasantness underneath (the vitriol on here at supposedly 'chavvy'/foreign baby names and the incredible fact that people are still bullied for having red hair, and this is somehow accepted, spring to mind).