Stop teaching child that it’s okay to refer to someone’s skin colour

[CannotThinkOfName]

Calling someone - a random person you don’t know - black is racist. I don’t care if your personal friend or your family member or someone else you’re close to doesn’t mind being referred to like this because they’re speaking for themselves as individuals.

Pointing out someone by skin colour is rude at best and at worst a form of racism. This is because

1. Skin colour that I was born with is brown.
2. Skin colour that I was born with does not define anyone. It doesn’t define your traits, characteristics, hobbies, goals, ambitions or anything else that truly defines who a person is.
3. It’s a form of racial harassment to start bothering someone at random and bringing up their race and colour for no real reason and singling them out by it.

I’ve seen people say there’s nothing wrong with their child referring to people by skin because they are just “saying what they see”. This is wrong because as a child, I never ever saw myself as “black” or described myself “black”. This is taught as a way to refer to people, it’s not simply a child “saying what they see”.

Please stop teaching your child that it’s okay to refer to people that you don’t know this way. If you do know someone and they’ve told you to call them black then that’s their choice as an individual. They don’t speak for anyone else but themselves.

If you don’t know someone’s name, - just ask them what their name is and call them by their actual name. Not “that black girl” or “the black woman” or “that black lady”.

[quote SrownBkinGirl]@AccidentallyOnPurpose I think the OP has said something to that effect or at least confirmed it when quoting me or someone else but I can't remember. However, I got this from the OP's posts, so there must be something OP said about it.

Perhaps OP will come back and confirm.[/quote]
I found the post you are referring to .

• SrownBkinGirl A black lady, a Chinese lady, a Spanish lady, an Indian lady.... Its a descriptor to easier identify/describe someone because of their own characteristics.

Except there's no nationality called Black. It's obvious where the Chinese, Indian and Spanish ladies are from. What about the Black lady?

This isn't a good argument for it but a lazy way to lump everyone with brown skin together.
Exactly. If you’re a “black lady”, then that’s all you are, ethnicity or nationality apparently don’t exist for “black ladies” but it does exist for Chinese, Spanish and Indian ladies.*

However after that OP was asked if she would prefer African, BAME, people of colour etc. and she never replied to that. In a reply to me she said she just wants to be called by her name. I'm honestly not trying to be a dick. I think a discussion around terminology is always necessary in order to change/improve things, but it also needs solutions/alternatives.

I already use different terminologies in various situations(especially online where I don't know them) as I take my cues from the people concerned.

Your view is not the consensus though OP is it? Other people are perfectly happy to have their skin colour referred to and would consider it offensive for people to avoid doing so as they see it as part of their identity. Rather than telling people not to do something you as an individual find offensive, a better message would be that there is not necessarily a one size fits all approach for relating to people, and to be guided by the wishes of the person concerned.

I agree that children unnecessarily pointing out someone's skin colour should be discouraged, however describing someone's skin colour as a way of identifying them is not racist. There are not many black people where I live so if I took in a parcel for our neighbour I might say to my husband "It's for the black lady across the street" because it's the quickest way of identifying who I'm talking about. And if I lived in an area where there weren't many white people I'd fully expect to be described as the white girl. Because I am a white girl. This is not racism.

@AccidentallyOnPurpose Okay. I can't speak for the OP on this one as I've said I disagree on some things. I feel the OP isn't coming across as clearly as she'd like, which is why I've tried to clarify what I think she meant on different occasions, but it's just what I think and could be wrong. She's accepted my clarifications a few times on the thread so will let her confirm what she means here.

Fair enough .

This is bizarre. Just the other day, I read someone saying the opposite - that FAILING to call someone black is racist because you're "pretending you don't see race". The poster said that this was harmful.

Is it also racist to refer to white people as white? The last time I checked, white people aren't actually white either.

I feel like the whole world needs to stop acting like their own personal opinions and feelings are an objective truth. You can't just announce something as fact when others disagree with you. You're welcome to share your opinion, but that's what it is - an opinion.

I also probably won't be taking advice on how to speak to my children from a stranger on the internet.

It depends on the context surely, if I'm having an argument with someone who is black, and I use the fact that they are black as an insult, such as saying 'you black bitch' or something like that (which I've seen happen before btw) then yes that is racist. But if someone is describing someone else, and they say 'they are black' that's not racist, it's descriptive, like saying 'they are white' (also white people aren't actually white, we are all shades of brown, some darker and some lighter)

This thread reminded me of this comedy routine- about 3 minutes in.

This thread is crackers.

If you’re of that disposition, then you’ll find offence in anything. Some people look for offence in everything, whether it be race, gender, sex and so on….

Sometimes people can’t win. Some people interpret someone specifically not using colour to describe a person (in a non racist situation) as racist, as they’re proud to call themselves black.

The next person doesn’t want to be referred to as black and asks why Asian people aren’t described as black but those from African descent are….

People can not win at all. You can’t please everyone all the time and what one person finds offensive, the next person finds it insulting that the first person finds it offensive. 🤯

Of course there are times when the colour of someone’s skin is irrelevant and there are racist undertones, but most people want to do the right thing and don’t want to offend people!

@QuizzlyBear

I lived for years in Tottenham in the 90s. I was frequently the only white person in the shop / room / bus. People often referred to me as 'the white girl' - not through disrespect but because it was a very obvious differentiator.

When I worked in offices in central London my best work friend was a lawyer in our firm. One day we had a temp receptionist and I stopped by to ask if my friend X was in the office. The receptionist didn't know her name and asked what she looked like. I absolutely blanked on what to say because both the receptionist and my friend were black. I stuttered 'she's this tall, dark hair, dark eyes, office down the hall, mum of two...'

The receptionist just stared at me as though I'd lost my mind. 'The black lady?' she asked. In fairness she then took the piss out of me relentlessly for the next month, as did my friend - the ONLY black lawyer in the firm....

This happened to me when I lived in an area with few white people, I was 'the white girl' or 'the Russian girl' (I'm not Russian so dunno why I was called that lol )

It's not always possible to know someone's specific ancestry just by looking at a person*
*
Yes. If I was asking someone to find my friend quickly in a noisy crowd, I'm not sure it would help to say 'look out for the Scottish/Icelandic/South African/German woman'.

I try not to to refer to race at all just in case of offending.,white has used as a catch all for anyone not another colour regardless of where they originated from. I’m old enough to remember that Asian wasn’t used it was Pakistani or Pali, the paki shop on the corner. I don’t remember our Pakistani neighbours being offended . What offended them were then yobs breaking their windows based on their ethnicity and occasionally they missed and got ours. That was racist. Then coloured was the accepted term in the Uk and that seemed reasonable at the time due to all the colours people can be. My understanding is we now use Black as a catch all because overall this is the term that
Most black people are happy and proud to use. The OP finds it offensive and am sure others might be offended too so I’m those individual circumstances people that know you would respect your views. There’s no denying it’s an absolute minefield but things change and they are changing for the better and happily faster than ever before.

Sorry loads of typos. I am even worried now to ask someone with an accent where they are from in case of offense.

Surely it's contextual?

My current home town is becoming rapidly more diverse, but if I was in room of people I didn't know and had to identify someone that happened to be a person of colour I would probably refer to them as black as it would be the quickest and most effective way to identify them.

If I went back to my birth city, which is much more diverse, I'd be just as likely to have to point out 'the white guy over there'.

Surely we just automatically default to the most obvious physical feature in situations like this?

In my case it would be the fat, middle-aged, blonde woman. Not particularly keen on that description but it's factually accurate and would identify me quickly.

@Keke94LND - that's very odd, I'm also not Russian but was given a Russian nickname by friends when I lived in Tottenham.

Maybe I was just THAT pale that I looked as though I was from Siberia? Never seen sun?! It never occurred to me to feel offended, I agreed that I could do with some sun (I still could...)

[quote QuizzlyBear]@Keke94LND - that's very odd, I'm also not Russian but was given a Russian nickname by friends when I lived in Tottenham.

Maybe I was just THAT pale that I looked as though I was from Siberia? Never seen sun?! It never occurred to me to feel offended, I agreed that I could do with some sun (I still could...) [/quote]
Haha are you blonde? I have blonde hair and assumed maybe that's why I was called the Russian girl 🤷🏼‍♀️

Race isn't based on genetics but phenotype in a very loose sense

Phenotype is determined by genetics though. So race (as in black or white, for instance which may cover many different ethnicities) may be too broad a concept but is still determined by genetics

Okay I'll give you a real life example. We constantly have parties for Africans and you will have white guests. If no one knows your name, and they need to describe you, your race will come up! Are we racist?

Going around in circles. My point that it is not a regular occurrence for the majority of people still stands. You may 'constantly have parties for Africans' but it's not the norm. There's no point bringing up a 'what if' scenario, it doesn't change my point and the point that others have made, that in the UK, white is the default.

And as I've said before, context is everything.

“I do not think that referring to someone's skin colour is racist”.

It’s racist. It’s just that it’s a form of racism that has been normalised. People need to quit it.

Race is a made up thing.

Does that mean that White Privilege is either a completely imagined thing, or a very real but racist concept?

Just when I thought the world couldn't be any more bonkers, I come across this thread. Give me strength. YABVU.

I've seen people say something like 'if race isn't real, then racism isn't real'.

I don't think it's as easy as that.

Race (black, white red, yellow, as it were) is a concept or label based on the (inaccurate) skin colour and general phenotype of people of/within a geographical or ancestral location.

I'd say it's one of the ways people lump each other together. We can't help it as humans to put everything in box.

Racism is just using this concept to express ignorance or hatred, as well as insecurity or superiority and all other things humans do. If there was no such thing as race, people would still express ignorance, superiority, insecurity and hatred in other ways (and they do. This is one of the ways). That's the essence of racism and it doesn't need to be called 'racism' to exist or be pointed out or solved. Not that it shouldn't, it just doesn't have to be, if that's what's keeping some people away.

That people don't want to be seen as a 'race', based on the superficial criteria, doesn't stop those opinions and behaviours from being present, perpetrated and tackled.

So call it racism or not, that is real.

If anything, it may be better to break it down so that when someone is accused/accuses someone else of racism, they're clear on what exactly they're being accused/accusing someone of, and aren't lumping ignorance, for example, with hatred or abusive actions, etc.

You need to get a grip. You are black.. are you ashamed of it? Of course race is a thing. Why is it ok to say someone is blonde then? If you need to describe someone visually and there’s a white woman with dark hair and a black woman with dark hair, but it’s the white woman you’re trying to describe… surely you can call them white to differentiate them?

I don't see how using a person's colour of their skin as a descriptive term is racist. It would be ageist by that logic to describe someone as elderly/a child/teenager etc. It doesn't make sense. It's all about context.

You are black.. are you ashamed of it?

I know this was to the OP but again, this is a tired line and people keep trotting it out.

What is there to be ashamed and why is it the main thing that comes to mind when people say this? What does it mean to be Black and can you pinpoint, from that, what the OP is supposed to be ashamed of? Is it culture - which Black culture, and has OP said they're ashamed of that culture? Is it skin colour - has OP said they hate their colour? Is it other Black people - has OP said they don't like to be seen with others?

If you wanting to argue about people being ashamed, I'd say those who try to change their skin colour (whether darken or lighten), hair texture/length, nose, lips, cheekbones, etc are more ashamed of what they have and not happy with parts of who they are. Not someone whose only gripe is not liking a label given to them and hasn't said or shown that they don't like where they're from or any part of themselves.