Stop teaching child that it’s okay to refer to someone’s skin colour

[CannotThinkOfName]

Calling someone - a random person you don’t know - black is racist. I don’t care if your personal friend or your family member or someone else you’re close to doesn’t mind being referred to like this because they’re speaking for themselves as individuals.

Pointing out someone by skin colour is rude at best and at worst a form of racism. This is because

1. Skin colour that I was born with is brown.
2. Skin colour that I was born with does not define anyone. It doesn’t define your traits, characteristics, hobbies, goals, ambitions or anything else that truly defines who a person is.
3. It’s a form of racial harassment to start bothering someone at random and bringing up their race and colour for no real reason and singling them out by it.

I’ve seen people say there’s nothing wrong with their child referring to people by skin because they are just “saying what they see”. This is wrong because as a child, I never ever saw myself as “black” or described myself “black”. This is taught as a way to refer to people, it’s not simply a child “saying what they see”.

Please stop teaching your child that it’s okay to refer to people that you don’t know this way. If you do know someone and they’ve told you to call them black then that’s their choice as an individual. They don’t speak for anyone else but themselves.

If you don’t know someone’s name, - just ask them what their name is and call them by their actual name. Not “that black girl” or “the black woman” or “that black lady”.

Sorry context of last comment missing, as in describing someone specifically as opposed to another child,

very problematic and Othering

I don't understand this concept of 'othering' and here it's even written in capitals!

On the one hand people are encouraged to celebrate diversity, months dedicated to specific groups, etc. On the other hand any reference to any of this is offensive and 'othering'. How does it work?

If I didn't share absolutely every characteristic with the population of the place I'm born in or travel to, most people will observe that there may be differences and most likely be curious. As long as everyone is respectful and nobody is excluded, it's hard to see why so much emphasis is put on this word.

I don’t agree with the OP and I’m Asian/Chinese, not white/European.
I don’t think disagreeing is a “defensive response” or a “challenge to my identity”. There is nothing racist about mentioning ancestry as a descriptive of a person you are referring to in conversation so the other person can identify who you are talking about

From what OP said in response to your comment before, I'm going to add to it.

There was a time Chinese/East Asian people were called Yellow. There was a time Native Americans were called Red. These are now slurs because they resisted and instead they're called by their ancestry Asian/Chinese/East Asian, etc and Native American.

What OP and some people are beginning to say is time to stop calling us Black (like Yellow and Red) too and call us by our ancestry (African, Caribbean, American, etc just like Asian, etc).

You've conflated ancestry with race. Whose ancestry is Black? Where is Black country or continent on the map? What if they stop calling you Asian and start saying Yellow? Why is that wrong but you're speaking up for others to be called Black?

@sleepstandingup - impossible to tell from your post what you mean?

Which of those are acceptable to you, a white person, in this debate about the lived experience of people entirely unlike you?

@NameChangeNamaste i find it really fascinating how race/ethinc origin is handled in the States. So people will very happily describe themselves as African American, Irish American, German American and so on. It's an up-front "yeah - my roots are elsewhere" which not entirely unexpected in a country which has historically had a lot of immigration.

Also the use of Asian, IIRC, tends to mean what in the UK we'd be more likely to call east Asian, and they use south Asian where in the UK they'd say Asian.

It's all a matter of perspective, and familiarity i guess. There is definitely a lot to think about when conversations like this crop up, and it's often a very interesting and educating process. One thing is always clear though: context is important, and things change constantly.

it turned a page while i was posting:

I don't understand this concept of 'othering' and here it's even written in capitals

Othering, in capitals, is how social scientists describe the action of marking groups of people out as different ("other" - not like everyone else). And in an academic context, at least, i was taught that it is always capitalised. It is a very good short way of explaining a convoluted process.

[quote Beeth0ven]@sleepstandingup - impossible to tell from your post what you mean?

Which of those are acceptable to you, a white person, in this debate about the lived experience of people entirely unlike you?[/quote]
Sorry, you asked if op should not be allowed to speak out.

My point was correcting people when they use the word black to describe her whether that's correcting someone who points out Sarah across the room as the black lady and telling them that might be offensive and they should use X instead or reporting Steve to HR who keeps calling OP Black Sandra or giving a mouthful to a stranger who comes up and says "you're black right, so where are you from? No I mean really from" should never be an issue.

Even a post saying "next time you describe someone across a room as the short black man ease be aware some people find the term black offensive"

That's very different to ops post that everyone who uses black as a descriptor is a raging racist even if those people are non white themselves is inaccurate. Some people are, some aren't. So no, I don't think it's ok for OP to brand everyone who uses "black person" as a racist without any context regardless of anyone's lived experiences.

IN the same way I can't describe any man who describes me as "the woman over there" as a sexist or misogynist.

Should anyone correct anyone who uses a term in their vicinity that they find offensive? Absolutely.

@SrownBkinGirl
What OP and some people are beginning to say is time to stop calling us Black (like Yellow and Red) too and call us by our ancestry (African, Caribbean, American, etc just like Asian, etc).

I honestly did not get that impression from the OPs many posts. If OP had said that as well as you have, I would have agreed.

I do actually have issues with being called ‘Asian’ as to me the term is ignorant and clumps together what I view as several very different races that are visibly just as different from each other than a white European sat next to a black African. There are also limits to describing someone by their ancestral continent especially today with globalisation as every continent is now “ancestral” (millennia to centuries of settlement) to all the different races....after all majority of Russians are white Asians and they’ve inhabited Asia for many thousands of years....you can’t even use nationality as a proxy for race today.

African is not a construct, Samoan is not a construct, Brazilian is not a construct, Tahitian is not a construct - all will have some biological basis

Your examples don't have a biological basis as all Brazilians don't share the same ethnicity, for instance. One aspect is the location where someone is from and another is their ethnicity (which, has been called 'race' for a higher level common visual denominator most probably - as remember that when these words started to be used genetic understanding was only just beginning).

You may not like how language has evolved, how the English language was shaped by the English, or how humanity has genetically evolved depending on climate, etc, but that doesn't make it a 'construct'

What OP and some people are beginning to say is time to stop calling us Black (like Yellow and Red) too and call us by our ancestry (African, Caribbean, American, etc just like Asian, etc)

It's not always possible to know someone's specific ancestry just by looking at a person

as the short black man
I think most men would feel more offended by short.
The thing is, black is a variable that doesn't change. Clothes can change or be uniform
Hair can be pretty generic. Eye colour is not immediately apparent unless eyes are unusual or striking.

And I know half Jamaican friend would not like to be referred to as African, as her roots and culture are very different from mainland Africa.

@PlanDeRaccordement I agree but we can at least start from somewhere factually correct, as OP has been saying or trying to say. African, Asian, American, British, European, etc they're all lumping people together but at least they're geographically correct. What is white, black, yellow, red? Nothing. No basis whatsoever.

I know the OP has made different statements on this topic but this sort of conversation is important to wade through and pick what is important from it, not try to shut it down because OP has said one thing out of turn. Besides all the stoppy comments from people who don't like to discuss anything uncomfortable out in the open, there's been some informative ones. Even in disagreement, we can still learn from each other.

@SrownBkinGirl

I don’t agree with the OP and I’m Asian/Chinese, not white/European. I don’t think disagreeing is a “defensive response” or a “challenge to my identity”. There is nothing racist about mentioning ancestry as a descriptive of a person you are referring to in conversation so the other person can identify who you are talking about

From what OP said in response to your comment before, I'm going to add to it.

There was a time Chinese/East Asian people were called Yellow. There was a time Native Americans were called Red. These are now slurs because they resisted and instead they're called by their ancestry Asian/Chinese/East Asian, etc and Native American.

What OP and some people are beginning to say is time to stop calling us Black (like Yellow and Red) too and call us by our ancestry (African, Caribbean, American, etc just like Asian, etc).

You've conflated ancestry with race. Whose ancestry is Black? Where is Black country or continent on the map? What if they stop calling you Asian and start saying Yellow? Why is that wrong but you're speaking up for others to be called Black?

But OP isn't saying that. If she did , or offer alternatives a lot more people would probably agree and consider it (if they're not dicks).

She's been asked by several posters if she'd prefer other descriptors(including African) instead of black.

Her only alternative is to call her by her name which is impossible for people that don't know her , or if we need to refer to black people as a group for various reasons .

African, Asian, American, British, European, etc they're all lumping people together but at least they're geographically correct

Geography doesn't mean anything in a medical context, for instance. Genetics are important

What is white, black, yellow, red? Nothing. No basis whatsoever

It's probably a very early, clumsy attempt dating from the 1400s to acknowledge different ethnicities. It doesn't mean that 'it's 'nothing' or a 'construct'

There could be someone with red hair born in South Africa. I would still expect specific challenges faced by this group due to their genes to be acknowledged when they go and see a GP

I’d hate to be referred to as ‘British’.

I’d hate to be referred to as ‘British’

Here we go...the UK bashers are here

@AccidentallyOnPurpose I think the OP has said something to that effect or at least confirmed it when quoting me or someone else but I can't remember. However, I got this from the OP's posts, so there must be something OP said about it.

Perhaps OP will come back and confirm.

[quote SrownBkinGirl]@PlanDeRaccordement I agree but we can at least start from somewhere factually correct, as OP has been saying or trying to say. African, Asian, American, British, European, etc they're all lumping people together but at least they're geographically correct. What is white, black, yellow, red? Nothing. No basis whatsoever.

I know the OP has made different statements on this topic but this sort of conversation is important to wade through and pick what is important from it, not try to shut it down because OP has said one thing out of turn. Besides all the stoppy comments from people who don't like to discuss anything uncomfortable out in the open, there's been some informative ones. Even in disagreement, we can still learn from each other.[/quote]
I did read the thread and honestly the OP rejected being called African as you suggest.

I am happy to discuss these issues and agree with your viewpoint though and think it would be a great thread for you to start.

@mustlovegin oh don’t be so idiotic. Just because I don’t want to be referred to as British, doesn’t mean I hate the U.K. I was born in Britain but have all sorts of different ancestry in me so would not like to be confined to one description.

But arnt you just teaching kids that to say somebody is black is wrong. Ie black is wrong? I personally think that is more damaging, there is nothing wrong with being black/brown/white etc I would t want to insinuate there was by making it wrong to define. I would refer to myself as white and if in a country where I was the minority, wouldn’t take offence at being referred to as white by a child of a different race.

I lived for years in Tottenham in the 90s. I was frequently the only white person in the shop / room / bus. People often referred to me as 'the white girl' - not through disrespect but because it was a very obvious differentiator.

When I worked in offices in central London my best work friend was a lawyer in our firm. One day we had a temp receptionist and I stopped by to ask if my friend X was in the office. The receptionist didn't know her name and asked what she looked like. I absolutely blanked on what to say because both the receptionist and my friend were black. I stuttered 'she's this tall, dark hair, dark eyes, office down the hall, mum of two...'

The receptionist just stared at me as though I'd lost my mind. 'The black lady?' she asked. In fairness she then took the piss out of me relentlessly for the next month, as did my friend - the ONLY black lawyer in the firm....

Geography doesn't mean anything in a medical context, for instance. Genetics are important

All black people have the same genes or dna? I think you should know that Africa alone has high levels (of not the highest level) of genetic and phenotypic variations. Race isn't based on genetics but phenotype in a very loose sense.

I think it's wrong, too. My friend has a habit of saying "this black man/woman..." when telling a story but I've never heard her refer to a white person in a story as white. It's as though people think it adds to the story somehow, if you wouldn't point out someone is white then don't point out someone being black imo. White isn't the default skin colour lol

African, Asian, American, British, European, etc they're all lumping people together but at least they're geographically correct which is fine if its a geography qn. If it's about racism they're fairly pointless. If it's religion these and skin colour are useless. If it's describing a victim or perpetrator of crime religion and geography are useless.

But OP still retains the right to tell people to not describe HER as a black woman / person

I did read the thread and honestly the OP rejected being called African as you suggest.

Okay. I can't go back to re-read it all so I'll take your word until the OP confirms. I probably inferred from what I thought the OP was saying.

Not sure where to begin with the new thread but I think that topic is still connected to this one. All part of it.