Stop teaching child that it’s okay to refer to someone’s skin colour

[CannotThinkOfName]

Calling someone - a random person you don’t know - black is racist. I don’t care if your personal friend or your family member or someone else you’re close to doesn’t mind being referred to like this because they’re speaking for themselves as individuals.

Pointing out someone by skin colour is rude at best and at worst a form of racism. This is because

1. Skin colour that I was born with is brown.
2. Skin colour that I was born with does not define anyone. It doesn’t define your traits, characteristics, hobbies, goals, ambitions or anything else that truly defines who a person is.
3. It’s a form of racial harassment to start bothering someone at random and bringing up their race and colour for no real reason and singling them out by it.

I’ve seen people say there’s nothing wrong with their child referring to people by skin because they are just “saying what they see”. This is wrong because as a child, I never ever saw myself as “black” or described myself “black”. This is taught as a way to refer to people, it’s not simply a child “saying what they see”.

Please stop teaching your child that it’s okay to refer to people that you don’t know this way. If you do know someone and they’ve told you to call them black then that’s their choice as an individual. They don’t speak for anyone else but themselves.

If you don’t know someone’s name, - just ask them what their name is and call them by their actual name. Not “that black girl” or “the black woman” or “that black lady”.

Plenty of people of colour will disagree with you. Me for one.

I think you need to work through why you are so wound up by this.

@DeepaBeesKit

Children describe by physical characteristics to narrow down what they are referring to. So in a crowd of mainly light skinned people, they will identify a darker skinned person by reference to skin colour.

However yanbu that "black" isn't the literal term children use. They say brown. They also don't distinguish between the skin colour of, say, a dark skinned person of south Asian descent and a person of African descent. Both are simply "brown". In the same way that someone with red hair has "orange" hair.

I agree.

@hotmeatymilk

But many Black people say it’s racist to avoid using Black when describing someone, because dancing around it suggests being Black is problematic – which obviously it isn’t. So isn’t it fair to say that you find it racist and others don’t, rather than it categorically being so?

This is what I thought. Happy to be told other wise though

@SrownBkinGirl

Do you have an issue with who you are?

Cmon, this is a tired line at this point. As a Fulani (I assume by your name) girl, I'm sure you know 'Black' isn't "who you are" or who your ancestors are (What does that even mean?) but it's fine if it's who you identify as.

Black is just the word we use in society. Pp has always been black, meaning a person of African origin, even if they didn't specifically use the word black

No point getting outraged over the word. We're all grown ups- we know black people aren't literally black, nor white people actually the colour of printer paper.

Black is just the word that differentiates brown skinned people of African origin (compared to those of central/south Asian origin for example)

@CoolOven

I don’t ever hear the ‘white lady’ as a descriptor

If there was a group of people, only one of them white, and someone asked "which is Julie?"
Wouldn't you say the white lady?

Yet another example that isn't likely to happen, sure in a specific situation then yes, but as general thing, white is the default. This example doesn't change that.

So there's a group of people you don't know but are commenting about a piece if clothing you like that one of them is wearing. Your friend asks which one you're talking about, but 3 of them are wearing green, which is the colour of clothing you're talking about. How else do you explain which person you're talking about without using descriptive terms?

Why would that be viewed as racist, when the same could apply with hair colour/types?

How is it acceptable to say "its the red headed one" but not "its the one who is black"

Stating somebody is black isn't racist, it becomes racist when the intent behind why you're saying it is to be offensive.

This shit has got so bad that my child is afraid to tell people that he has a black cat, incase he is thought of as being racist.

@LolaSmiles if it’s directed towards me, I have the right to state what language I find acceptable or not.

@fulanigirl, I noticed you didn’t answer my question. Is black the way your Fulani ancestors referred to themselves, or is it a term your learned to call yourself and from whom did this term come from and for what purpose was it used to define Africans. You and I both know the reason why Lupita and Chimamanda didn’t know they were black until they left Africa has nothing to do with African Americans and everything to do with the fact the black is a term invented by people from outside Africa to describe people of African descent. The only reason it became acceptable to use was because African Americans said it was (because they are not aware of their actual ethnic heritage anymore) and people in all western countries adopted it.

😂😂😂

Lupita and Chimamanda are both Africans in America. They know where they are from, they know they're history. They spent a huge part of their lives in Africa where they have the same skin colour as most of the population. African Americans don't have that, most of them don't know where they are from. They have developed a whole entire culture that different from most Africans such Lupita. You cannot compare. So yes, it's different.

I actually agree with this. It is different for people depending on where they were born and grew up.

DS has recently been asking me more about people when we're out and about like
"Why is that man in a wheelchair?" And "why is that lady brown?"
Disabilities I've found much harder to explain because i have no idea why someone is in a wheelchair or has a walking stick. I can say "oh because they can't walk or find it difficult" but then he starts asking why etc.
When he asks about why people are different colours or have different physical features, I've just been saying "why are you pink?" Or "why is your hair yellow?" He has a moment's though and says something "because that what I look like" and I can say "well that's what they look like" and he accepts that no problem.

I wouldn't refer to someone by their race or colour because I generally have no need to. I'll refer to what they're wearing or a hair style or something. One of the only reasons I can think of to refer to someone's race is if they were a missing person? Some reason where a detailed description is essential

@Puzzledandpissedoff

It's obvious where the Chinese, Indian and Spanish ladies are from

Is it?

Show me someone who insists they can always and reliably distinguish an Indian from a Pakistani, a Chinese from a Korean and a Spaniard from a Portuguese and I'll show you someone who's almost certainly lying

I can tell if someone is ethnically Pakistani, it isn’t particularly hard, I can also tell if they’re Balti origin etc.

No point getting outraged over the word.

Who is getting outraged?

We're all grown ups- we know black people aren't literally black, nor white people actually the colour of printer paper. Black is just the word that differentiates brown skinned people of African origin (compared to those of central/south Asian origin for example)

Are you Black? OP says she is and this is her opinion. I don't see why you should minimise it. If you're Black, your opinion to be called Black is valid too. If you're not Black, then...

@Comedycook

I’ve never heard people point out someone is white before

Really?! If I saw a crime being committed by a white person and I was describing the perpetrator to the police, I'd absolutely say that the person was white.

Think about it in terms of someone relating a story to you, instead of specific scenarios that may rarely occur to an individual (I don't think I've ever had to describe a crime to the police).

You're at work and someone is telling you 'this lady just walked into the shop and started shouting at everyone! It was mad!'

I've often found people will say 'this lady walked into the shop, this black lady yeah, and started shouting at everyone!'

It's not used in a racist context, but it's describing the person to you, because white is the default.

@endlesscraziness

My 8 year old doesn't know her friends are black as I don't think it's something she's really aware of though we do talk about racism, American history etc, but when trying to describe a friend at school, she said the tall girl with dark brown skin. Is it ok as a descriptor? Like the small blonde girl for example?

Yes it is. Refusing to acknowledge someone's race is the racism. We all come in different skin tones, why is it wrong to acknowledge it? Why skirt around the term like it's something dirty?

I hope you don't think I'm having a go at you, I'm really not, it's a general message. I tried to type this just so you know!

[quote CannotThinkOfName]@LolaSmiles if it’s directed towards me, I have the right to state what language I find acceptable or not.

@fulanigirl, I noticed you didn’t answer my question. Is black the way your Fulani ancestors referred to themselves, or is it a term your learned to call yourself and from whom did this term come from and for what purpose was it used to define Africans. You and I both know the reason why Lupita and Chimamanda didn’t know they were black until they left Africa has nothing to do with African Americans and everything to do with the fact the black is a term invented by people from outside Africa to describe people of African descent. The only reason it became acceptable to use was because African Americans said it was (because they are not aware of their actual ethnic heritage anymore) and people in all western countries adopted it.[/quote]
Except a lot of countries all over the world (not just western) have used their equivalent of black for a very long time. Even when there wasn't any American influence at play.

“Black is just the word that differentiates brown skinned people of African origin (compared to those of central/south Asian origin for example)”

Ok, so then why don’t south Asians become black and African (including Afro Caribbean and African Americans) become people of African origin. Who gets to dictate that only people of African descent should be called black and every other ethnicity should be known by their ethnicity or nationality? Why can Asians be Asian but I must be black because someone else said so?

@hotmeatymilk

But many Black people say it’s racist to avoid using Black when describing someone, because dancing around it suggests being Black is problematic – which obviously it isn’t. So isn’t it fair to say that you find it racist and others don’t, rather than it categorically being so?

I agree with @hotmeatymilk

I spoke with someone who was trying to describe who X was, out of a team of 200 colleagues

He went round in circles letting me know where she'd worked, what she ate for lunch, where she sat etc. I had no idea who he was talking about

When he finally mentioned that she was black, I knew exactly who he meant, as she was the only black lady in the team

Genuine question, promise I am just trying to understand, would people consider that offensive?

@SrownBkinGirl

A black lady, a Chinese lady, a Spanish lady, an Indian lady.... Its a descriptor to easier identify/describe someone because of their own characteristics.

Except there's no nationality called Black. It's obvious where the Chinese, Indian and Spanish ladies are from. What about the Black lady?

This isn't a good argument for it but a lazy way to lump everyone with brown skin together.

I don't think any of these examples are good, you can't tell a person's nationality by looking at them

@SrownBkinGirl

A black lady, a Chinese lady, a Spanish lady, an Indian lady.... Its a descriptor to easier identify/describe someone because of their own characteristics.

Except there's no nationality called Black. It's obvious where the Chinese, Indian and Spanish ladies are from. What about the Black lady?

This isn't a good argument for it but a lazy way to lump everyone with brown skin together.

How is it obvious where anyone is from? Your ethnicity doesn’t depend on your nationality. My son is brown, does that mean you think he isn’t British?

I know this is very different so please see where I'm coming from, but I'm very, very pale and I have been referred to as the pale woman over there and I didn't like it. There is much more to me than my paleness... obviously I've never experienced racism due to being pale so it's not comparable in that respect

@fulanigirl As you say, many Americans have such blended ancestry, hence generic terms like African-American and Asian-American have developed.

My DH, for example, had great-grandparents from four different countries.

@MolyHolyGuacamole. Yes I understand and agree. The problem is the op is applying her opinion to all situations it seems...hence why I said at the start of the thread, context and intent is the important factor here. Referencing someone's race can range from it being racist abuse to being absolutely crucial information.

Why are you offended by being described as “black” OP? Do you think being black something to be embarrassed about?

I have 3 mixed race GC. They are not bothered about being described as black. Being 50% white and 50% black they have concluded that as their skin tone is not white (whatever “white” may be?) they refer to themselves as black - like their dad, who is proud to be black. Being described as black (even though their skin tone is light brown) doesn’t bother them at all. They see their skin tone as more black than white.

Why does it bother you OP?

I had a recent experience in the playground with DS, who is 3, with this recently.

He said 'I want to play with the black boy' when referring to a child he had played with earlier, who was black and was also wearing a black coat. DS also referred to a white girl as the 'red girl' as she was wearing red earlier in the day.

I instinctively pulled him aside and mentioned how it isnt nice to comment on skin colour and if he comments on clothing colour he should name the item of clothing too, and suggest he asked the boy what his name was.

However, I can't help but feel I might just raised his attention to the boys skin tone. I feel it is right to teach him not to focus on skin colour but that also acknowledge it isn't right to be 'colourblind' all the time.

@MolyHolyGuacamole

You would hear 'the white lady' as a descriptor in a room full of black ladies though?

And how often will this happen though?

It is correct that white is considered the default, read any book. Characters are mentioned by their hair or eye colour only when they're white, but someone from an ethnic minority would have it spelled out or have an ethnic name.

Or the number of times I've heard someone comment on a white person's partner 'oh I wasn't expecting them to be (insert ethnic minority)' because the person in question is white. And yes it could happen the other way around too but seeing as 86% of the population is white, this is the context in all of the times I've heard it mentioned.

Remember the outrage when Hermione was played by Noma Dumezweni in the Harry potter play and everyone insisted that she was written to be white? But I think (if I remember rightly) her race was never mentioned in the books.