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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

So if the Minimum Wage increases...

488 replies

missbunnyrabbit · 25/10/2021 20:20

My own wage in a public sector job seems lower than ever. The article I read suggests the public sector pay freezes will end, but I doubt we'll get such a large pay rise!

Aibu to feel like packing my teacher job in to go and work a minimum wage job instead?

OP posts:
Morgysmum · 26/10/2021 21:14

One thing you need to take into account. A lot of minium wage, is also zero hour. So you don't get, sick pay, you don't get holiday pay, yoy might get 40 hours a week, or yoy might get 8 hours, can you cover your rent/mortgage on 8 hours at £9:50?

CallMeNutribullet · 26/10/2021 21:26

@Fetarabbit

If you can't afford to pay yours staff the bare minimum then your business has become unviable, you said the costs were mostly wages and fuel, mostly?

Yes lots of small businesses will fold, many of which either perform an important role within a supply chain of another product, or a valuable service such as nurseries.

People have been saying this since minimum wage was introduced.
Ddot · 26/10/2021 21:46

So because you got a decent education and training you should earn more than minimum wage people because their jobs are easy. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 try working in a factory, it's so easy and not at all stressful the people are very kind and respectful. No danger, grime, sweat, early mornings, night shifts. Piece of cake. Shop work is great, stand for eight hours, chatting to customers who love to chew the fat. Organize stock and just mill around selling stuff. Bloody hell you are delusional

MasterGland · 26/10/2021 22:20

With regard to wage increases pushing up prices, I don't thinkthis holds true for all goods and services. Food, energy and housing are non-negotiables, and so you have to pay what is charged. But there must be a price cap on other discretionary items? If you have a company that makes novelty mugs, for instance, there will be a ceiling price for that product. At some point, as volume sales drop, the price must drop. There will be a point at which a lower margin is accepted, due to falling sales. I imagine we will see quite a lot of this discounting next year, as inflation hits 5%. I also expect we will see some more retailers go under.

Gingerandlemont · 26/10/2021 22:55

The minimum wage needs to go up. It’s inhumane to expect people to live in poverty.

Teaching sounds bloody hard though, and should also be better paid.

Where should the money come from? Tax the super rich more. The government should help pay the salary increase for socially useful min wage jobs like nurseries, and this should be funded by taxing the socially useless parasitical industries like social media giants, hedge funds etc…

Oh and although I agree with you OP that teaching sounds hard, so are a lot of minimum wage jobs. Can you imagine being a care worker during the covid crisis they deserve a medal.

And do stop saying things like “but I’ve trained therefore I’m entitled to xxx” doing three years at uni (mainly having fun I hope) and then a years training is hardly back breaking gruelling work that entitles you to a better quality of life than everyone else.

Awalkintime · 26/10/2021 23:06

I would agree knowing how many extra hours you put in as a teacher takes you below minimum wage. While you might earn a larger salary, the hours themselves mean you earn less per hour than someone on a basic wage.

Do what you need to do and what is right for you. This year will mean many many teachers will leave because of this. You will be one of many.

AlbertBridge · 26/10/2021 23:46

OP, you seem to believe a degree makes you entitled to money. It doesn't. I get that you regret your career choice but don't take it out on supermarket staff.

PickUpAPepper · 27/10/2021 00:04

What a load of weird answers. Yes everyone who works an honest day deserves an honest day’s pay that actually covers the cost of living - the full cost of living, including housing.

But. If you’re in a job that requires education and qualifications and those qualifications cost money and time, you need more money to make that effort worthwhile.

If you want people with education in jobs requiring knowledge, then they have to be economically more worthwhile than doing nothing and being an illiterate cleaner. I’m no better off now with a postgrad qualification than I would have been getting myself pregnant at 12 and being given a council house and that makes me into a total mug. Im damned if I’m putting in extra effort for the kind of people who don’t recognise that and who think I should work for love. The combination of extreme left and extreme right attitudes at the moment is very weird.

PizzaCrust · 27/10/2021 00:35

@Morgysmum

One thing you need to take into account. A lot of minium wage, is also zero hour. So you don't get, sick pay, you don't get holiday pay, yoy might get 40 hours a week, or yoy might get 8 hours, can you cover your rent/mortgage on 8 hours at £9:50?
This. I used to work in a bar and before I was a supervisor there, I was on a zero hours contract. Now, don’t get me wrong, I was studying at the time so I had my student loan and this job topped up my loan so I was “ok” financially. I could afford rent, few takeaways a week, nights out, clothes, etc. It was basically spending money for fun as a student.

But if I wasn’t a student, therefore having that loan, that job wouldn’t have kept be afloat at all. I’d have barely made rent and groceries. There’s no way I could have afforded bills.

Over summer, when all the students went home from the city, I had two 5 hour shifts a week. In the Christmas period, I had 6 a week, easily anything from 8-12 hours long. This included Boxing Day and NYE. They were non negotiable. We all worked these shifts. And the shifts were fucking horrible. Sold out club nights, easily 2000 patrons in. Add alcohol and, unfortunately on occasion, drugs, into the mix, and you can imagine the chaos. Fights, vomit/shit/piss/other bodily fluids to clean up. Broken glass and spills made it a health and safety nightmare so you spent your entire shift running from place to place to avoid accidents from happening because walking just wasn’t quick enough. My hearing went funny after a couple of years of working there because wearing ear plugs meant you couldn’t communicate with staff properly, and the heat of the club while you’re running around made you feel dizzy at times. We often finished up at 4am in the morning after spending at least an hour cleaning the venue down top to toe, with all the grim things that came with it.
Plus, it was physically hard work. I don’t think people realise how heavy full kegs are, for example.
And, like most other NMW jobs, rotas were put up on the Saturday night if we were lucky for shifts beginning on the Sunday. Yep, the next day. I remember vividly having one of my managers ringing me on Sunday night wondering where the fuck I was because they changed the rota later on the Saturday shift (ie the day before) and because I hadn’t thought to check a rota twice in one day, I had no idea I was in. So, I frantically had to get dressed and rush over there.

Holiday pay was a lump sum whenever they could be arsed paying you it. We didn’t get payslips for months at a time. Pay was often wrong so you’d have to sit and work it out to the penny then present the evidence to your manager who would maybe front you your money early, if they were in the mood. People got sacked due to management’s mistakes (stock results wrong, assumed people were giving out free drinks so sacked them in front of everyone). Yep, in front of everyone. About 30 of us in the room watching this happen. And how were they sacked? “We’re sorry we’re going to have to let you go”?

No no. Try “get your coat and fuck off then”.

I guarantee every single person who worked there would take a teaching job over that shithole any day of the week. I quit, eventually, after a new manager decided that I was a prime target to bully because I was a female supervisor and he was a misogynistic pig. Couldn’t complain to our main manager because he had already tried it on with one of the girls (he had a wife) and was similarly pervy.

But, hey. Welcome to the NMW life when you’ve worked in a bar. I swear, for me to go back to that job now, you’d have to pay me at least £30 an hour. It was fucking horrendous. So yep, they definitely deserve a pay increase. It’s why I always tip when I’m out. Even though, I know, they’ll probably take half the wages anyway to cover any “losses”. But it’s the least I can do, having lived it and understood it. Fucking woeful.

JGB1987 · 27/10/2021 00:38

@Magicalwoodlands

effort doesn’t seem worth it

But you have already made the effort.

Do you seriously think that working as a care assistant, stacking shelves in Tesco, working in an Amazon warehouse, is somehow stress free and ‘easy’?

It isn’t. It’s hard, gruelling work, it often involves anti social hours (nights, evenings, weekends) no sick pay, no god forbid death in service benefit, no pension, no enhanced maternity pay, often dealing with very difficult situations and people.

I know there is a lot wrong with teaching and that it’s hard work, but as a minimum you’re on nearly 26,000. Minimum wage on a 40hour week isn’t that.

You are correct that for example tesco (or other supermarket jobs) are hard work and unsociable hours etc.. but I would like to correct you.. they do have good unions who are pushing and making sure supermarket employees have the benefits you mentioned.. during lockdown I actually worked as a supermarket employee as I wanted to be useful and didn’t feel like sitting on my arse for what I thought was gonna be a couple of months only. They get better treatment, benefits and hourly pay than people in hospitality, they get extra pay for these unsociable hours and bank holidays, also death benefit (or whatever it’s called if you die not only in service but while employed), enhanced maternity package and company sick pay and additional extra holiday time after some time. Also pension schemes are in place. Lets not forget about a employee discount! That’s also massive help and saves loads of money normal people have to pay out every week/month. It is not stress free and easy but the benefits are there. And comparing to some other jobs, you can just show up to work, do your job during your contracted hours and clock out on time. No phone calls, emails, messages at home about work. Some people just want that.. they are not looking for more responsibility and challenge.. just to go to work, fill some shelves and then go home..

Comparing to hospitality, it was like holidays for me when I started.. less mentally exhausting, better pay, optional overtime, work flexibility and great discounts..

MadameTuffington · 27/10/2021 01:02

I earn under £10 per hour as a Support Worker in the Care sector - yes, the job is bloody tough - it is very physically and mentally draining (yet rewarding) and we juggle a huge number of daily tasks with the management of challenging behaviour and inadequate staffing, We deal with multiple healthcare professionals and family members and have to accurately record everything that takes place - I don’t however manage and/or supervise colleagues or have ultimate responsibility for decisions and outcomes - I believe this is why our wage is low - I still think carers specifically should earn at least £10 an hour after the horrors of Covid and also because the cost of living is now spiralling.

I worked as a secondary TA for 14 years and IMHO teachers should be on mega bucks - teaching is a ridiculously stressful and multi faceted job and this Government shows them very little respect.

missbunnyrabbit · 27/10/2021 01:18

@Ddot

So because you got a decent education and training you should earn more than minimum wage people because their jobs are easy. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 try working in a factory, it's so easy and not at all stressful the people are very kind and respectful. No danger, grime, sweat, early mornings, night shifts. Piece of cake. Shop work is great, stand for eight hours, chatting to customers who love to chew the fat. Organize stock and just mill around selling stuff. Bloody hell you are delusional
Sooooo many completely ignorant and ill thought out claims on this thread. I honestly don't know where to start with all the points/corrections that need making.

Although, I am glad some sane people with a basic understanding of society and economics have joined the thread.

I worked out my hourly salary equivalent. It's £9.45!! That's based on my typical 60-70 hour week.

@Ddot Are you a communist by any chance? Of course trained jobs should be paid more than minimum wage! Otherwise why would anyone bother training for anything?

Think someone also decided that I only think degrees are worthwhile and not apprenticeships. Absolutely not true, I'm talking about any form of long term training or qualifications, definitely not necessarily a degree.

Someone said that teaching is a stable job - I have only just, in my third year, received a permanent contract, and I am the only one out of the teachers I know from uni to have got one! I am very lucky. So many teachers do not have stability due to schools being very reluctant to offer permanent contracts.

After 6 years in minimum wage jobs (I actually had three jobs at once for two years - start at a children's breakfast club for 7.30 then work as a TA during the day, until 3.15 when I worked at the club again for an hour, then had to go to my other job in the supermarket for 4.30-10.00. That was a 14 and a half hour day!!) I can't believe anyone has the audacity or presumption to claim that I or other people "don't know what it's like working nmw". Erm, I do. I have done the long hours. I have worked all the bank holidays. I did back breaking work in the supermarket (I'm tiny and had to carry heavy boxes and use machinery in the warehouse). I know exactly what it is like to have yiur hours changed at the last minute, be spoken to like shit, be utterly run off my feet. I can honestly say that teaching is more stressful and exhausting than any of that.

I'm also not saying having a degree or whatever entitles you to a job. But if you get a job that uses your qualifications, I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect your wage to reflect that, especially in comparison to entry level jobs. It's really not a hard concept.

This is not me looking down on nmw jobs at all. I have considered going back to it for years, throughout my difficult training years. Everyone is entitled to a living wage. But the more training you need for a job, the more you should earn in comparison.
I have no idea how anyone thinks society would work if everyone was paid the same.

OP posts:
missbunnyrabbit · 27/10/2021 01:27

Also, I actually don't mean to bang on about teaching - I have heard countless stories from nurses and social workers etc that are awful. I could never be a nurse, I think they should be paid in gold for what they do.

I'm trying to (not very succinctly) say that if nmw rises without giving rises also to the trained jobs in the public sector especially, then the pay bridge between jobs closes and makes it less worthwhile to go into these careers.

Furthermore, yiu definitely can progress in nmw jobs. I'd seen colleagues promoted to higher positions over time. One of my friends started as a bar worker in a spoons, now he's one of the managers and looking to go further. So it's a lie to suggest there is no progression.

OP posts:
Magicalwoodlands · 27/10/2021 02:58

If you’ve only just been offered a permanent contract and you are the only one from your friends from university to have been offered one then it indicates no shortage in teachers. And yes, before anyone starts, I know there might be an overall shortage - but it is subject and area dependent and always has been.

If there are no shortages of teachers of your subject / age range in your area then it is unlikely that the rising of minimum wage will see everyone flock towards these jobs.

Whenthedealgoesdown · 27/10/2021 04:17

A lot of call centre and office jobs are minimum wage and you can wfh so they are not all in factories, shops and bars

Marchitectmummy · 27/10/2021 06:13

@MasterGland

Such a shame that we can't seem to escape this incessant need to be doing "better" relative to others. That way misery lies. We would live in much happier, healthier, lower crime communities, if we had much flatter hierarchies. The minimum wage should increase drastically.
Would we? Maybe have a conversation with anyone who has lived through communism as to whether that's true or not.
Ddot · 27/10/2021 06:34

missbunnyrabbit
I agree if you spend time and money you should earn more but I dont agree that if you work minimum wage jobs as op said it is easy! because it is not

Ddot · 27/10/2021 06:49

If money needs to be cut it's always the lower end that is shaved never the elite. Too many shareholders filling their pockets. My friend worked in the field (not literally) he then got seconded as a trainer. After several months successfully training he still is on same money but no bonuses so is training people for less than their on. Now apparently its costing too much so he is back and forth, in field and training so bonus messed up, hence no cash again. This country needs a shake up. Minimum wage is bad only because cost of living is ridiculous (rent) how can it be that bloody much for what you get. If you want deluxe then yes you have to hand over the cash but have you seen some of those flats, tiny houses covered in mold falling apart, yet still its unaffordable. Shameful situation

CurzonDax · 27/10/2021 07:02

No one can make the d2cision for you - you have to do what's best for you. My story:

Taught in secondary schools for 11 years - was middle management in the end, and earning £48k a year. I got bullied out of the profession by toxic colleagues, and had a mental breakdown. (I did initially try and move schools, and whilst the people there were better, my confidence had been knocked so much, I had to accept that I wasn't being fair on the students if I stayed). My DH supported me through this time, but to be honest, if I had stayed in teaching I probably would have ended up losing my marriage - my behaviour was very difficult during my breakdown, which did put a mental strain on him too.

Left 2 years ago, and am in an admin role and earn £18k a year (at 37 hours a week, this is only just above minimum wage. However, I have worked out that I could potentially be under the minimum wage, if it is increased to £9.50 an hour, maybe?).

I absolutely love my job, and have great colleagues, and a wonderful and supportive manager. I am very fortunate that I was able to take such a pay decrease (a small inheritance a few years back paid off a chunk of our mortgage and DH supplements my wages a lot - it actuallydoes suck to think that I wouldn't be able to do this job/be on this wage if I were single!).

For me it was the best decision- mentally, I am now in a good place. Yes, I have loat my 13 weeks holiday a year, and our disposable income would be absolutely amazing if I were still on my teaching wage, and I'm definitely not using my degree now. But fir me, it was the right decision. I'm also so so fortunate that I was able to make that choice (I appreciate many other on minimum wage jobs aren't able to have the same choices/options that I had).

You need to weigh everything up and do what's best for you and your family.

Brefugee · 27/10/2021 07:24

I love a shiny new 26 year old teacher telling people here relating their stories of life on NMW that they're all wrong.

OP, do what you like. Just don't whine about it in 5 years when you're still on the same wage. Or if you're working next to someone with zero qualifications who gets more hours than you because they just get on with it.

PickUpAPepper · 27/10/2021 07:31

@Magicalwoodlands

If you’ve only just been offered a permanent contract and you are the only one from your friends from university to have been offered one then it indicates no shortage in teachers. And yes, before anyone starts, I know there might be an overall shortage - but it is subject and area dependent and always has been.

If there are no shortages of teachers of your subject / age range in your area then it is unlikely that the rising of minimum wage will see everyone flock towards these jobs.

Not necessarily. As you say it is very area dependent. But there are regions where staff were moved wholesale onto temporary year-long contracts to avoid having to pay yearly increments and rises.

TAs are another absolutely shit job. Actually require a lot of skill and education - I have been required to take lessons and, effectively, plan them, on £10 an hour - but are viewed as low down the hierarchy. Too many teachers treat them like shit, and believe they are so superior.

Employment conditions in this country are absolutely crazy now. Far too much of it is about snobbery and maintaining social orders, not getting jobs done. For all of us, minimum wage and qualified staff. We should have all been rioting in the streets long ago, but it has been like a slowly boiling pot, and older people were very very keen to get us all to accept worse conditions steadily. I have been sent on 'change management' courses and told how 'negative' and ticked off or generally made to feel like a little bit of shit on someone's shoe for not being 'change positive' so many, many times. It's become more of a crime to be intelligent and able to see that these changes are negative for those of us not born into wealth than it is to commit actual crimes.

catfunk · 27/10/2021 07:33

'I have done the long hours. I have worked all the bank holidays. I did back breaking work in the supermarket (I'm tiny and had to carry heavy boxes and use machinery in the warehouse). I know exactly what it is like to have yiur hours changed at the last minute, be spoken to like shit, be utterly run off my feet. I can honestly say that teaching is more stressful and exhausting than any of that.'

So go back to it then?
But you won't will you. Because you'd lose sick pay, holidays, union, and any employment benefits you've accrued, and general stability.
My cleaner at work earns twice my hourly rate technically. But it's just not comparable.

I actually agree that public sector workers are underpaid but this thread is a bit nasty and really feels like you're punching down tbh.

ivykaty44 · 27/10/2021 07:49

I love a shiny new 26 year old teacher telling people here relating their stories of life on NMW that they're all wrong.

Then will wonder why they got so many peoples backs up

Magicalwoodlands · 27/10/2021 07:52

I don’t actually understand what you are wanting to riot in the streets about, @PickUpAPepper

MasterGland · 27/10/2021 07:54

@marchitectmummy I am not a communist. I vote Conservative! However, there has been research that shows that societies that have higher wealth inequality have higher levels of unhappiness. I am not suggesting that everyone has to earn the same, but I do think we should ensure a decent standard of living for those on the minimum wage. It should be much higher.