To think only the computer literate can now go on a foreign holiday

[rookiemere]

We're just back from Tenerife and had a wonderful time, but oh my goodness the online forms to fill in were not easy for either Spain or UK, nor was the Randox registration for our PCR tests on return ( in Scotland).

I consider myself to be reasonably computer literate, but I was very grateful for some prompts I found on a Facebook help group. It took me an hour for each passenger locator for, and another hour roughly for three PCR tests ( plus an additional half hour to drive to a drop box as apparently they don't accept Royal Mail boxes anymore).

I get why the documentation is needed, so I'm not against that per se, but the fact it must be done on a device means that some people may not have that and are now forced to buy a smart phone which seems unfair.

You also need to be pretty literate to interpret the questions, so again could be tricky for some.

So my AIBU is, is it right that the form can only be completed online ?

My PILs are in their 70s and 80s. MIL does not have a mobile, FIL sells on Ebay and is on Facebook, but he can only do this from an iPad, can't work a PC.

However, he expects DH to sort lots of tech stuff and anything to do with printing is a nightmare! DH spent ages sorting their holiday forms last month and, as they travel a few times a year, I expect he will have more to do.

My dad is very proficient. He's late 70s and can navigate tech as he was open to learning.

I'm 48 and didn't really use a computer until 1997. We had typing at school. At college, there were limited pcs in the library, which I used rarely. I had an electric typewriter for assignments.
Then I worked in hospitality and in an office from 1997. My partner also bought a home PC after that.

I have colleagues/friends/families in their 50s who wouldn't know how to work a computer or set up apps on phones/tvs etc.

But what I do struggle with, is the unwillingness to learn, the bury the head in the sand. My mother, in her 70s, is a bit like this.

@julieca
My school had an Apple II and a TRS-80 in 1978
I went on to get a BS and MS in Computer Science.
My first job as a programmer was using a System/360 mainframe.
I've worked with computers ever since.

@Patapouf I have a phd and use computers daily . I had a problem with a passenger locator form not recognising my QR code from my vaccination, took me and my brother ( CIOT if a lags US tech company) at least 30 mins to resolve this .
It's not about computer literacy necessarily sometimes the forms are impenetrable.

@julieca Look here to see the timeline of computers. 1986 was when the very first commercial desktop PC was first produced. So your office was very unusual in having this

We had Commodore PETS when I started work in 1983. I first used a Commodore PET in school when I was in fifth form in 1980.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_PET

@julieca Look here to see the timeline of computers. 1986 was when the very first commercial desktop PC was first produced.

First IBM PC came out 40 years ago in 1981. I worked in an office in 1982 which used Word Star on CPM to produce letters, documents etc.

I hope this sort of thing doesn't happen anymore but a few years back I went on holiday and informed my mobile phone provider that I would need to use my phone abroad. They told me they had done all that was necessary and I wouldn't have any problems.
Not true I couldn't use my phone for the duration of my holiday at all.

When I got back and contacted them they confirmed that somebody had stuffed up and they were sorry about that.

As I say I don't know if it applies anymore - having to tell your provider that you are traveling abroad.

It's the sort of worry that would put me off going but I want to so will have to hope all is well.

@RantyAunty did you go to a private school?
The cost of an Apple in 1978 is equivalent to $5,600 today. Few schools could afford that and certainly no state schools I knew.
And sure there were small numbers of PCs produced that used dos commands. They were very user-unfriendly and expensive. They were not widely used and most people had never used a computer as early as this.
For example, in 1983 IBM sold 750,000 computers worldwide which was seen to be an enormous success. This is nothing.
I was at university then and we were all doing handwritten essays. Computers were for those studying computer science or for data-heavy tasks in workplaces, or firms who bought cutting edge technology. It was not commonplace. And most people my age would not have used any computer until much later.
I mean my friend who works with mainframes was using computers 50 years ago, but her knowledge was so specialist she travelled the world for her kob. Not your ordinary office worker.

1984, my school had two or three BBC computers and one ZX.

My dad showed me the computer room at his county hospital around the same time. It had a huge mainframe and a lot of tapes.

At home we had a BBC, and a tape recorder, also around the same time.

I think saying a person needs to be IT savvy to fill in the forms is misleading. The forms are not user friendly, and that is the root of the issue. I guess zero cross-platform user testing was carried out, or if it was, it was done by someone already familiar with the forms.

True, You have to be confident enough to know it's not you with the problem but the form.

@Worldgonecrazy

1984, my school had two or three BBC computers and one ZX.

My dad showed me the computer room at his county hospital around the same time. It had a huge mainframe and a lot of tapes.

At home we had a BBC, and a tape recorder, also around the same time.

I think saying a person needs to be IT savvy to fill in the forms is misleading. The forms are not user friendly, and that is the root of the issue. I guess zero cross-platform user testing was carried out, or if it was, it was done by someone already familiar with the forms.

Forms not being user friendly was common with paper forms too, it’s not an exclusively “computer” thing at all. Poor form design, ambiguous questions, unanswerable questions, not enough space etc has been commonplace on paper forms for decades.

My parents are late 60s and mange to go away, all booked independently via their computers abd iPads. As does MIL who is in her 70s.

Even older people can use technology if they want to learn how to.

@Worldgonecrazy yes lots of places had mainframe computers. Very different from a desktop. My brother had a ZX spectrum, it was affordable but loaded up using a tape recorder and really had fairly low capability. My brother works in computers and is a big computer geek.
That year was about the time there was the national campaign to get a BBC computer in every state school. I think it depended on the number of pupils if you got one computer or more? But most pupils obviously got nowhere near the one or two school computers.

[quote julieca]@RantyAunty did you go to a private school?
The cost of an Apple in 1978 is equivalent to $5,600 today. Few schools could afford that and certainly no state schools I knew.
And sure there were small numbers of PCs produced that used dos commands. They were very user-unfriendly and expensive. They were not widely used and most people had never used a computer as early as this.
For example, in 1983 IBM sold 750,000 computers worldwide which was seen to be an enormous success. This is nothing.
I was at university then and we were all doing handwritten essays. Computers were for those studying computer science or for data-heavy tasks in workplaces, or firms who bought cutting edge technology. It was not commonplace. And most people my age would not have used any computer until much later.
I mean my friend who works with mainframes was using computers 50 years ago, but her knowledge was so specialist she travelled the world for her kob. Not your ordinary office worker.[/quote]
Yes, I know all this. I was there. I have quite a few patents.
I never was an ordinary office worker but I've implemented countless systems over the years.

Do you remember the Wang 2200 computer?
The majority of the top US companies used Wang office equipment in the early 80s.

No I have never heard of the Wang computer.
But talking about using what was very specialist equipment then is pretty meaningless in terms of the average person.
I mean I suspect in years to come we will have personal robots that we will have to programme. If someone in years to come said that people have been using personal robots since 2015 that would be true. But virtually no one has a personal robot now. And even though they are widespread in some industries like car manufacturing, very few people use robots at work. It is a specialised piece of kit, rather than something nearly everyone has.

Ha, my Dad's 70 this year, and is my go-to person for digital/technical computer stuff!

Even my 93-year-old Grandma has a tablet.

My parents are in their 70s/ early 80s and have no problems with all the forms. In laws are 10 years younger and won't go abroad as it's "too much hassle and we can't do the paperwork ". This feels like a recurring theme, lots of things are too much hassle for them. I feel like for a lot of people it's more that they can't be bothered to read the information and take the time to understand it. Instead they blame the fact that it's all online whereas really it's just laziness.

Not laziness, just stressful.

Some of it is laziness I think. If they just dont bother then it will all go back to the old ways that they know and love. That and giving it to someone else to do (i.e me!!).

The PLF has brought to the forefront that you MUST embrace some things. Not be a wizzy expert but just know enough to get by. You cannot expect everything to remain the same just because you cannot be bothered. My DM and DF have me - some people dont have anyone.

@Franklin12 going abroad on holiday takes work and some stress. At various points of life the stress is not worth it for some people. For some that is travelling with a baby or toddler, for others that is dealing with multiple forms and tests. It is supposed to be fun.

Julie - I 100% agree with you. Horribly stressful and you drive to the airport always thinking you might have missed something. Some check in agents ask for all forms, some ask for some of them and suddenly as you walk off the plane someone is literally standing there demanding to see your locator form.

Because of the pandemic we have all had to think very carefully whether we wanted to go abroad. I made the decision that a UK holiday would not be good enough so I spent hours sorting out forms, checking and re-checking and making sure everything had been completed, ticked etc.

The result was I went twice and the second time was no easier than the first because the blooming rules had changed again!

Was it worth it in the end - ABSOLUTELY!!

Would I have rather given all the paperwork to someone else to do so I didnt need to bother if I had the option? Yep....

@julieca

No I have never heard of the Wang computer. But talking about using what was very specialist equipment then is pretty meaningless in terms of the average person. I mean I suspect in years to come we will have personal robots that we will have to programme. If someone in years to come said that people have been using personal robots since 2015 that would be true. But virtually no one has a personal robot now. And even though they are widespread in some industries like car manufacturing, very few people use robots at work. It is a specialised piece of kit, rather than something nearly everyone has.

But there weren't just "very specialist equipment". The Amstrad PCW was launched as far back as 1985 and cost just 25% of PCs at the time, so was a very affordable home and small office computer.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amstrad_PCW

@Franklin12

Some of it is laziness I think. If they just dont bother then it will all go back to the old ways that they know and love. That and giving it to someone else to do (i.e me!!).

The PLF has brought to the forefront that you MUST embrace some things. Not be a wizzy expert but just know enough to get by. You cannot expect everything to remain the same just because you cannot be bothered. My DM and DF have me - some people dont have anyone.

I agree that for a lot of people it's just laziness and "can't be bothered" rather than them genuinely being unable to cope with new tech.

It's no surprise people struggle when they make no effort to learn new things and then find themselves forced to use it at a stressful time. Yes, being forced to use an app for PLF forms when you've never used an app previously will be hard and stressful. But there is no reason why people couldn't dip their toe in the water and start using apps for other things beforehand to get their smart phone connecting to the internet, get accustomed to the app store, etc. If you've used a few simple apps, (such as weather, online shopping, new, etc), then you've gained a lot of experience and skills for more complicated apps.

@Badbadbunny Between 1985 and 1990 Amstrad sold 3 million computers. By 1990 computers had become a bit more common. But 3 million computers in total over five years is not a lot. No most people did not have a personal computer. It was from 1990 that computers began to take off. Late eighties computers began to become more common in the workplace, especially for secretaries. 1990s/early 2000 is when lots of secretary jobs were got rid off and other staff expected to take on those roles with their own computers. Look at footage of people trading in the stock exchange in the 80s. They were still doing it on the floor rather than at computers.

By the way worldwide in 2019 23.2 million personal household robots were sold. Do you know many people who have a personal robot at home?

My point is that people are acting as if it's a complete surprise that computers/apps/smartphones have suddenly appeared. In reality, we've had "tech" for 30/40 years and use/scope has been steadily increasing throughout that time. It's been blindingly obvious that the use of "tech" will increase and eventually take over all "manual" operations.

I think there is a minority of luddites who are just in denial about "tech" and are assuming they don't have to use it, and that there'll always be alternatives or someone else to do it for them, not because they're incapable, but because they just can't be bothered.

I have some sympathy for those, say, 80 and above, who were retired/winding down by the time computers/smart phones became commonplace, but anyone younger has had ample time to become IT literature when they were young enough to be able to learn the basics. And let's face it, it's only basic use that is needed - no one is expecting a 60 year old to learn to program, they're just expected to be able to navigate an app.

I don't think it's a case of being computer literate.

It's just a tedious process and having to get the timings right for the testing and reading the rules and regs were the worst part when I flew in summer this year.