To think only the computer literate can now go on a foreign holiday

[rookiemere]

We're just back from Tenerife and had a wonderful time, but oh my goodness the online forms to fill in were not easy for either Spain or UK, nor was the Randox registration for our PCR tests on return ( in Scotland).

I consider myself to be reasonably computer literate, but I was very grateful for some prompts I found on a Facebook help group. It took me an hour for each passenger locator for, and another hour roughly for three PCR tests ( plus an additional half hour to drive to a drop box as apparently they don't accept Royal Mail boxes anymore).

I get why the documentation is needed, so I'm not against that per se, but the fact it must be done on a device means that some people may not have that and are now forced to buy a smart phone which seems unfair.

You also need to be pretty literate to interpret the questions, so again could be tricky for some.

So my AIBU is, is it right that the form can only be completed online ?

@RantyAunty lots of people in their 70s and 80s go on holiday abroad.
I don't know how you can be old and have worked with computers all your working life unless you were in a small group of people working with computers when they were cutting edge.
I mean the ZX81 was launched in 1981. An incredibly basic home computer that used a cassette tape. Computers in the workplace at that point were specialist and took up whole rooms.

Computers have been around for years. Maybe not when a 80 year old started work but perhaps when they were 60. My DH refused to have a mobile, computer etc and got himself in a horrible mess with his finances. He is now in a care home and I do it all for him and I am no spring chicken myself!

You also just need to know the minimum, how to log on, how to load a document. How to do a spell check. How to print. Some people just put their heads in the sand and decide they won’t even try.

My DM refuses to use anything bar a mobile and she doesn’t know how to text. However she has me to help so she has decided to just not even try. Having said that she is late 80’s but she has always been like this. Doesn’t drive and never saw the need but always expects someone to pick her up (in their car!).

@Franklin12 I am in my fifties. Computers were not around when I started work. At university, we still handed in handwritten essays. At work, I wrote letters by hand that I gave to the secretary to type up. I didn't use a computer until I was well into my twenties (28 I think?). And then it was a basic computer. I worked with managers whose secretaries still printed off their emails 15 years ago. Some of those men were close to retirement.
People seem to think computers have been ubiquitous for a long time, they really have not.
Of course there have been people using computers at work longer than me, but my workplace was not unusual.

@retroginglass

Computers have changed a lot over the years and unless you have kept up with doing anything more than the basics I completely agree with the OP. My DH works in IT but says he can't do a Tesco online shop - go figure!

Are you sure this isn’t convenient incompetence?

I’m 48. We had Computers classes in school when I was 14. I used a computer at work starting when I was 18. By the time I was 20, we only had a handful of typewriters left in the building for filling out the occasional form and that was at a university department park with a bare bones budget.

I think this bothers me so much because I’m not ok with my generation being written off as technologically incompetent.

[quote julieca]@Franklin12 I am in my fifties. Computers were not around when I started work. At university, we still handed in handwritten essays. At work, I wrote letters by hand that I gave to the secretary to type up. I didn't use a computer until I was well into my twenties (28 I think?). And then it was a basic computer. I worked with managers whose secretaries still printed off their emails 15 years ago. Some of those men were close to retirement.
People seem to think computers have been ubiquitous for a long time, they really have not.
Of course there have been people using computers at work longer than me, but my workplace was not unusual.[/quote]
I'm in my 50's too and started working in 1982. We had a few computers back then in our office (for VAT returns and payroll) as did quite a few of our clients. I moved to another firm in 1986 and we all had our own computers on our desks. By the late 1980's nearly all of our larger clients were using computers for their book-keeping/payroll etc as were a fair number of smaller clients. I moved into industry in 1992 and we were using internal "email" for all internal memos/communications etc rather than hand or type written memos/notes.

@Franklin12

I honestly think people need to at least try to use computers. Just because they cannot be bothered, dont want to try, would rather do it the old fashioned way doesnt mean those ways carry on.

Banks are shutting because they are expensive to run on the high street yet people want to do it the way they have always done it and that just isnt feasible now.

Some old people are even proud they dont have a phone, computer etc but they I expect increasingly find that they are shut out of some things. If someone can say drive a car with all that that entails then surely they can gain some IT skills.

When you are in your late eighties and expected to learn something totally alien, you might understand.

Just because it wasn’t introduced when you were at school/in the workplace doesn’t mean that you just decide it’s not for you. I am no expert at all but we do need to embrace new things. If you choose to ignore, decide not to try, or just don’t feel you can it doesn’t mean that everything just carries in as normal (for you).

@DriftingBlue I am 7 years older than you. We had one computer in a large secondary school. But by the time I left there was the BBC computer initiative to get computers into state schools. We had zero computer classes, we had typewriter classes.
In 1990 Microsoft 3.0 was old for the first time. This meant you no longer had to use dos commands and had a desktop. The mackintosh portable released in 1989 would cost $14,811 in today's money.
So at 18 starting a job in 1990 where you had your own computer was unusual. In 1990 it was generally specialist workers who had a computer, or if a company was very into new tech, a secretary or pa.
Things did change fairly fast, but most people in their fifties and older will not have spent all their working life using computers. It does not mean they have not learned, but it was a skill acquired along the way.

Most late 80’s people aren’t going abroad. Not all of them of course but my parents and friends parents are quite happy to stay in the UK. Not my choice which is why I learnt how to do the plf (which is a pain in the bottom!)

@DriftingBlue

I can maybe buy into people in their 80s possibly not being computer literate, but everyone below that, including people in their 70s have used computers actively for a long time now.

They really haven’t. My 72 year old mum has never needed to use a computer for work, and would find it v hard to get to grips with one now.

@DriftingBlue

I’m 48. We had Computers classes in school when I was 14. I used a computer at work starting when I was 18. By the time I was 20, we only had a handful of typewriters left in the building for filling out the occasional form and that was at a university department park with a bare bones budget.

I think this bothers me so much because I’m not ok with my generation being written off as technologically incompetent.

I'm the same age as you. My dad liked new technology and he bought a BBC Micro for home which my sister and I played a few games on. We didn't have computers at my school. I actually did one whole year of compulsory computer studies...without ever even seeing or touching a computer as part of the course. I didn't use computers at university either. I remember that there was a tiny computer room in our college library with a few computers in it, mostly only accessed by a few nerdy computer science students and my American friend who wanted to send emails back home. I did not use a computer in my first job either, but began to use one when I changed jobs at around 24 and have been using them ever since. I can well imagine that there will be people of my age in jobs that don't require computer work who have never had the opportunity to get used to them.

Of course our generation are not technologically incompetent. I regard myself as very competent these days, and there are many other people of my age who are much whizzier than I am. However, the fact remains that many people in our generation have not had the opportunities that I've had. Not everyone is like you or me.

@Franklin12 I have never said that.
But I do get weary of people falsely claiming how long computers have been common in the workplace.
Even when I got my first computer at work. we still had an internal post service, because lots of staff had no access to email, particularly those doing practical jobs.

[quote julieca]@DriftingBlue I am 7 years older than you. We had one computer in a large secondary school. But by the time I left there was the BBC computer initiative to get computers into state schools. We had zero computer classes, we had typewriter classes.
In 1990 Microsoft 3.0 was old for the first time. This meant you no longer had to use dos commands and had a desktop. The mackintosh portable released in 1989 would cost $14,811 in today's money.
So at 18 starting a job in 1990 where you had your own computer was unusual. In 1990 it was generally specialist workers who had a computer, or if a company was very into new tech, a secretary or pa.
Things did change fairly fast, but most people in their fifties and older will not have spent all their working life using computers. It does not mean they have not learned, but it was a skill acquired along the way.[/quote]
Things did change fast however as when I began work in the late 1990s everyone had computers on their desks - the vast majority laptops. Within a few years blackberries were ubiquitous and then iPhones (plus other smart phones). The pace of change will only accelerate.

@LittleBearPad it sounds like you are wealthier than me. Yes, I remember all the managers having blackberries, people like me didn't. I had a pager. And always a desktop computer at work until the pandemic.
Yes by the late 1990s computers were common in the workplace. Although there were still some places behind the times. I knew a woman who worked in an accountancy firm at the time who still used ledgers. But those kinds of places began to be outliers.
But I work with people who use computers but who struggle with anything that isn't word processing or excel.
Of course it is going to make life increasingly difficult. I don't actually want a smartphone but had to get one because it was getting necessary. I don't want people to be able to contact me anywhere anytime. But it would make me life harder not to have one.
I also didn't want the covid pass on my phone as it gives too much access to private info. But again I am going to have no choice.
Just because things are required does not mean we are all happy about them.

I am In my late 50s and I genuinely had absolutely no contact with computers until a few years ago !! My job as a nurse didn’t require IT skills. We had a ward clerk who did all the paperwork etc that involved technology. I only work a few hours a week and can honestly say that I cannot remember from one week to the next how to do anything other than the basics! My brain really doesn’t retain new skills as easily as 10 years ago !
I am a fairly intelligent person, as are my colleagues and we do struggle!
It really annoys me reading the shitty comments from some of the PP who probably spend the majority of their day using a computer and probably have done for many years .
There are many people regardless of their age who genuinely have no reason to use technology apart from shopping or social media .

That's awful @itsnotmeitsu was it proved? Was he prosecuted? Did her family get any of the money back ?

If you have to use a smartphone when you have poor eyesight it is virtually impossible though. I have my text magnified but then it makes navigating virtually impossible. What do I do?

Completely agree with you OP - my parents are in their 70s and have been reluctant to engage with technology, in particular the Internet, as they genuinely believed they would not need to know how to navigate it. Unfortunately the Pandemic essentially forced them to recognise that they will need to be able to use the Internet. It's been a uphill struggle!
They were desperate to go back to the Caribbean to visit family recently and if it wasn't for my brother arranging the PCR tests etc I genuinely don't know how they would have managed, as they did not have a clue. They did not enjoy the experience and have said that it's unlikely that they'll go abroad again if they're going to have to do everything online.

I guess for me it’s the lack of engagement that I struggle to understand. As though it’s going to go away and why should they bother or try?

I know what you mean @Franklin12. Myself and my brothers have tried to explain to our parents that they need to understand how to use the Internet in order to be able to do online banking, as branches are closing, and their response is that it won't happen in their local area!

I remember when I paid off a loan for them a few years back and the process of trying to sort it out was a nightmare, as their branch explained that it had to be done over the phone and my parents hadn't set up telephone banking. They got so stressed with it all and I explained that this is how banking is going to be like moving forward and they just didn't believe me.

An hour for a passenger locator form? Really?
Took me less than 10 mins and that included time for me to faff booking the pcr test and trying to find my bank card...

If you are computer literate enough to be able to book a holiday, you ought to manage the paperwork okay. I would have thought anyone that needs additional support to complete the forms probably also has help booking.

Holidays aren't compulsory though so I can't really understand the issue...

@Badbadbunny Look here to see the timeline of computers. 1986 was when the very first commercial desktop PC was first produced. So your office was very unusual in having this.
www.computerhistory.org/timeline/1986/

Most large offices in the years following that did have a few PCs for data-heavy tasks. There are always outliers. Offices that used ledgers and typewriters until a surprisingly recent time. And offices like yours who bought the very first commercial desktop computers in the year they came out for every member of staff. But neither of those were the norm.

Also as the nurse above shows, many jobs had no online recording until recently. I remember when I had a PC the photocopier guy looking for someone to hand sign his paper sheet confirming he had been and did the job. Because doing this kind of task online was too expensive for most firms to bother.

In terms of older people, most people get to a stage of keeping up with new technology and then it becomes too hard. My mum was an early adopter, does online banking, orders food and other things online. But I have noticed she seems to be stalling now.
I think it is very easy to judge people and say they should be able to do all this stuff. But most people do struggle more when they get older and do reach a plateau. And our society does not care.

@Patapouf booking an online holiday is very easy. It is not comparable and is putting people off booking. And the point is you have to do some of it when abroad, so there may be no help.