To wonder who will look after us in old age?

[malificent7]

I am curently a care assitant temp until my permanent job in healthcare is sorted. It is very rewarding but hard, dirty work for little money.
They are understaffed and many are leaving due to bad pay. As we are an aging population aibu to think this is going to get worse? How can we get carers to stay,?

Disclaimer...there is no way i want dd to look after me...not fair on her...i'd rather go to a home.

DH and I have a suicide pact - when one of us starts to decline in old age we are going to go on a lovely holiday, get things in order, write lots of lovely letters to loved ones and do ourselves in. We have been together since we are 15 and they can get stuffed if they think they will sell our house to separate us in our old age. I’ve seen a few older couples do this in the last few years and they definitely have their heads screwed on.

Assisted dieing will never become the default. There are too many ethical reasons why you would always have to jump.through hoops to get it. So no one could ever be forced so therefore never a default.

They do need to look more at having a living will type thing when you can decided to die only before dementia starts to fully kick in. Right now you have to choose it while still very sound state of mind and go while you still have possibly a few good years before total decline.

To me, assisted dying becoming the norm is really, really dark.

Watching someone dying week after week despite hospital support surrounded by the stench of their own rotting flesh, howling with pain every time the pain killers wear off, confused and not understanding why they’re not getting better is REALLY, really dark.

We are all going to die - we need to accept that. It is not something to be afraid of. However, I AM afraid of living too long or needing care - of "being a burden", if you like. I am lucky that I have no children, so that isn't an issue, but I sure as hell want to be able to choose when and how I die. It is barbaric that in a supposedly civilised nation we expect people to live for far too long just because medical science enables it.

To the posters who expect their kids to look after them. You are selfish people. I don't care if you would do it for others. You cannot expect others to do it for you. It's a horrible weight to put on loved ones.

My dad is 62.

Terminally ill with a cruel disease.

He can't walk, talk, eat, can barely see. My mum has had to take early retirement to care for him 24/7. It's killing her. She doesn't get more than an hours sleep at a time without him needing changed or moved.

But she does it because she wants to. And even then I'll have a few days a week of her sobbing down the phone to me saying she can't cope anymore.

I would never want to burden anyone I loved with that. It's awful and it's cruel to expect your offspring to put themselves through it.

I'm not expected in any way at all to do why nursing for him. Our relationship is such that if there was a list of people who he'd want to see him undignified then I'd be the bottom of that list. He wants me cleaning up his shit less than I want to do it.

And yet the guilt I feel and the guilt I have put on me by some of his friends and some family and (worst of all) people in the "support groups" for this illness is making me hate myself daily.

At the start of the year he tried so hard to get to Dignitas. But the legalities and Covid made it all but impossible without risking my mum going to prison. I really hope that the laws change soon now that I've been exposed to the reality of people living through things like this. If he was one of our pets he'd have been at rest a long time ago and everyone would be in agreement it was the kindest thing.

I grew up in an old people’s home (back when they were not glorified hospital wards and had very active and healthy elderly residents) and I remember when one of the ladies who had gangrene started to not respond to treatment - she screamed all night until the doctor came out in the morning and administered an overdose of morphine. My mum was the proprietress and was well aware that this was what happened. It was SO much kinder than what we do today with people languishing in beds for years with all the bedsores and complications that entails. I’m 38 so it wasn’t too long ago. Harold Shipman has a lot to answer for.

@TravelLost

The issue with assisted dying is the fact that every single contact with a HCP will have to have a part about ‘you know that you can chose for assisted dying. Many people in your situation have chosen that option because they found is degrading/hard/whatever to life their life like this’

It won’t be just people knowing it’s an option. It will be brought up repeatedly to people who really do NOT want that option.
It can easily become a form of pressure. ‘Oh I’m supposed to not want to carry on. They don’t want me to carry on. I am a burden. I can chose to die and then my dcs will have some inheritance at least etc….’

I also think that many people who say now they will chose assisted suicide instead are not that place. Maybe, due to the circumstances they will want to. Maybe they won’t. Saying you are sure that will be your choice is naive on all front tbh.

@TravelLost

Totally agree

There’s always someone who piously says how uniquely callous the U.K. is, in putting their old people into care homes (and in any case the idea that it happens nowhere else is laughable.)

You can bet your life that people saying that probably come from a culture where women have very limited opportunities beyond the home. It won't be the men looking after the old folk, that's for sure.

@SleepQuest33

My plan is: look after my health from now (i have done for years) to have as healthy old age as possible Luckily no one in my family has ever suffered from dementia (but have lived very long) so I may be spared on that front Lastly if I get to late 80s and get ill with something like cancer, I will not pursue treatment. Get all my ducks in order and off I pop when the time comes. A terminal illness left untreated hopefully shouldn’t take too long! However I will not go for assisted dying. It is suicide. I liken it to studying and working really hard to get your brilliant degree and then just when you’re about to finish, give all the work up and not graduate.

If only life was that simple and terminal illness didn't exist.

Maybe we should tell all those people who died of Covid, or kids with leukaemia, or people with Parkinson's that they just should've been more healthy then they would get to old age just fine.

Or those who did decide to die with assistance to stop the agony they felt every day that it was such a shame and a waste and if they'd only been healthier then they wouldn't have had to be such failures.

The care crisis and assisted dying are not the same thing; the vast majority of people who need care would not be eligible or even want assisted dying, they want care to be helped to live with dignity and enjoyment and that's where we are failing.

I agree.

Babdoc as a nurse of over 30 years I absolutely agree. Too many people living too long as a result of a cure all mentality, often with a dreadful quality of life at great financial expense to themselves and society. Let alone the psychological stress on families. The families (women) I know who have been guilt tripped into caring are all on antidepressants.

@thegreenlight

I grew up in an old people’s home (back when they were not glorified hospital wards and had very active and healthy elderly residents) and I remember when one of the ladies who had gangrene started to not respond to treatment - she screamed all night until the doctor came out in the morning and administered an overdose of morphine. My mum was the proprietress and was well aware that this was what happened. It was SO much kinder than what we do today with people languishing in beds for years with all the bedsores and complications that entails. I’m 38 so it wasn’t too long ago. Harold Shipman has a lot to answer for.

I agree. The likes of Harold Shipman have advanced a fear in those delivering care of providing pain relief or sedation to people that need it for fear of being accused of chemical kosh, and actual policies that enforce that. There's a belief that you're only doing it to give yourself an easy shift, because you don't want to deal with it, rather than the emphasis being put on what the person with the condition is actually going through and if that's humane or down right cruel. There were of course incidents where people were drugged to keep them quiet and still, and that needed addressing - but instead of what we have now, a better way would have been ensuring that there's enough people with the right training to deal with it, and that they are adequately paid for doing that. And that pain relief and sedation is seen as a positive for the person who has the needs, rather than a quick get out clause for the staff.

He can't walk, talk, eat, can barely see. My mum has had to take early retirement to care for him 24/7. It's killing her. She doesn't get more than an hours sleep at a time without him needing changed or moved.

This is so awful and sad. Neither of them should be going through this. As a society we have the means to give people a good death as well as a good life and it is criminal that we don’t.

Assisted dieing will never become the default. There are too many ethical reasons why you would always have to jump.through hoops to get it

@IncessantNameChanger I would love to feel able to agree that there would be robust safeguards. Sadly, I think the reality would be different

There have been many instances of DNR notices being made without the patient or family being consulted

The Liverpool Care Pathway was withdrawn for various reasons, including inappropriate use of it

Abortion legislation requires that a pregnancy may only be terminated in very limited circumstances. In reality, that's not the case

If assisted dying comes in, then for patients with dementia, I anticipate that if they previously granted a power of attorney, then the attorney would have authority to consent to AD. If attorney is an adult child, desperate to support their family..... easy to see how SOME people would regard AD as better use of £ than seeing their parent's savings exhausted by paying for care

For people without POA, the local authority would seek guardianship, with a power to consent to AD. So, a social worker, employed by cash strapped local authority MIGHT decide that your care isn't worth finding

I think all safeguards would be watered down over time, and it's unrealistic to hope otherwise

I don't believe that AD should be the solution to the care crisis

guardians would be appointed

the option of assisted dying

@Peggytheredhen

The care crisis and assisted dying are not the same thing; the vast majority of people who need care would not be eligible or even want assisted dying, they want care to be helped to live with dignity and enjoyment and that's where we are failing.

I agree.

When someone has dementia and is doubly incontinent, the mere idea of ‘dignity’ is a sick joke.

The only ‘consolation’ may be, that the dementia is advanced enough that they don’t care. I was so grateful for that being the case with my DM, who had been an intensely private person and whose former self would have been utterly horrified at the thought.

Very interesting thread. I'm with those saying they'd get straight to dignitas the moment they needed care. I've been saying that since I was in my teens. If I'm lucky enough to get to 80 odd still relatively fit and able I consider that a good long life. No point spending the next 20 years in a downward spiral waiting for an exhausted careworker to come and change my nappy twice a day. I would NEVER expect my DC to take that on, I want them to enjoy life to the fullest.

[quote Maverickess]@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER

Yes, they do have input if they want it, but, a lot don't understand the implications of the treatment being offered, and it must be offered, and it can also offer symptomatic treatment. And there's also a fear that when people stop eating and drinking they are being starved to death, or dying of thirst, because something can be done about that, whether it's in the patients best interests or not.
Stopping eating and drinking is a natural progression of many conditions, it's a symptom, and will lead to death. Support in these areas keeps people alive, but it doesn't stop the progressive nature of age or associated conditions that have led to the inability to eat or drink or the refusal. I don't agree with withdrawal of this type of support, but I do question replacing meals with fortified drinks, I think offer, but that's all, if it's declined then don't go any further.
So many people are not happy with that approach though.
More invasive treatment is often declined by individuals or family, but the non invasive treatments can be just as effective at prolonging life as the invasive ones.[/quote]
As regards refusal to eat and drink when someone is on the way out, some doctor put it very well:
‘They are not dying because they are not eating and drinking. They are not eating and drinking because they are dying.’

I dare say a lot of people won’t understand this, because nobody has explained to them that the person’s organs are shutting down and they can no longer process the food or drink.’

It would seem entirely logical to many, that failing to feed and water someone by whatever means, equals starving them to death.

I might add that when it was decided to let nature take its course with the aunt I mentioned earlier, the staff did continue to offer fluids and food such as yoghurt. I sat with her a lot during her last days so saw this happen regularly, but she would invariably close her mouth and turn her head away.

I agree @GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER

My DGM had senile dementia and would have been/was equally horrified at her loss of dignity. It's all round awful. I just meant that I agree with the pp that IMO the care crisis and assisted dying are different issues.

If I'm just a bit doddery and need a few things sorting out for me then I'd hope ds would step up. Once I'm at the point where I don't know what's happening, am in a lot of pain/distress and am making life miserable for ds then yes being helped to slip away painlessly is an option.

The only thing that worries me is how you safeguard this to ensure that it's not something that is used in the wrong way, by the wrong people.

I'm with those saying they'd get straight to dignitas the moment they needed care.

It's a nice theory. I wonder if you have considered that you might not just 'suddenly' need care, or be in the same frame of mind that you are right now when you do.

Depends how "bad" I am but I would want my DDs to look after me! I will look after my own mum if she requires it in the future. It's not selfish IMO it's what good families are supposed to do. However, full-time around the clock care with zero respite is different but if I just need a bit of help with showering/cooking well they can bloody well step up grin

Fuck right off with the judgemental good family nonsense.

@Borgonzola

Lots of people on here seem to be confusing making the right to make a decision about when to die with automatically farming you off to the euthanasia clinic when you reach a certain age.

It's not about mass euthanasia, it's about choice, like abortion. Sure, live as long as you want, if you can, and that's your choice. But someone else should equally have the choice to end their life if it has become intolerable to them, or would have been intolerable if their younger, healthier self knew what it would be like.

I personally think the extent that we now go to to keep the elderly alive is truly grotesque. Science has afforded us the ability to keep aged bodies and minds alive, but the ability to keep quality of life in line with actually just being physically alive has not caught up, and that has led to an awful gap between the end of one's enjoyable life, and end of actual life.

It's not just dementia or terminal illness that can rob you of your dignity, and to want to have the choice to keep living, or not, should exist, just like we have the choice not to bring life into the world in the first place. To place value in mere life by dint of still breathing, rather than the person's own sense of fulfilment in that life, is a barbaric, crude and selfish way to think, and to view other people. Having helped care for an elderly family member myself (as the only young female family member, interestingly), I can confirm that both the burden of care and the idea of being in that person's shoes were unbearable. And I don't think admitting that makes me a bad person.

The difference is that when you are pregnant no one asks you if you want an abortion. No one asks you the question at each ante natal treatment I’d you have considered abortion. After all, caring for a child can be tricky right?

If euthanasia is becoming legal, this will be a question asked to the patient as each appointment with their consultant. That’s what happens in the Netherlands for example. You are in hospital, with let’s say terminal cancer and the question is there, again and again. That’s distressing for patients too, just like it would be for a pregnant mum who is struggling with morning sickness or AND….

I personally would also worry that the quality of palliative care would go down because assisted suicide would be seen as THE right choice to make.

People should be able to make that sort of decision wo any emotional language or judgment been used.
What if someone decides to carry in living even though they have a terminal illness (let’s say because they want to see their dd getting married, seen their last Christmas with family or whatever?) even tough someone else would say that they have been robbed of their dignity etc…. Wouldn’t it be cruel to remind them again and again that they have no dignity left and they should chose to die?

I'm with those saying they'd get straight to dignitas the moment they needed care.
What would decide you needed care. The day you ask DGSon to put the bin out for you?
The day you can't find the purse you put down a moment ago. The second time you have a fall despite driving, shopping, mnetting daily.

I have post previously. The one thing that really strikes me is it’s impossible to know whether you would make the decision to die with assistance, until you are in the situation. I had a family member who decided he could no longer live with his pain and mulled himself. The pain he caused for his family both his parents, siblings and his children have left a terrible legacy on their emotional health. His father will never be the same man again. His mother has spent her life since praying in Church for answers and even consulting psychics. Most of us are part of a family, choosing to die can have terrible consequences. If my mother - my Dad is already passed, killed herself I do t think I would ever recover. She has looked after and nurtured me my whole life and I will feel privileged, exhausted, stressed maybe, but privileged to care for her. I do have a professional career, but nothing is as important in this World as caring for people we love.

I agree with @Maverickess and @GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER.

Few people (myself included) have any idea of what dying means and entails.
Nowdays dying often happens in hospital surrounded by technology.

I found the book from dr Mannix really helpful there.