Does the sheer volume of miserable women living their lives in service to men get you down

[BeMoreQueer]

In the many years since I first came on mn the same threads come up time and again

1. trapped in a loveless marriage, is this all there is?
2. I do everything for the kids/ house, he does nothing, im pregnant how can I get him to step up?
3. I gave up work to be a sahm and now I am treated like the nanny/ bang maid but can’t leave because I have no income or safety net

The sheer overwhelming cumulative volume of threads on these general themes make me despair for the women who don’t believe they deserve better, for the men who don’t seem to know how to be a meaningful part of family and for the generations that have grown up seeing this and are likely doomed to repeat it

Aibu?

Yabu = not my experience of mn / life
Yanbu = despair is reasonable response to unreasonable circumstances

I think there needs to be a lot more education around financial security and planning. I think that has a huge part to play in some of these scenarios.

I also think that there are huge amounts of pressure/ judgement within society. Which can perpetuate stereo types of what a ‘normal’ woman looks like. If you find the relationship board depressing, take a look at the step parenting board and the absolute bashing step parents (in the main women) get on there.

I’ve not tolerated sub standard standard behaviour anywhere in life (or relationships), until I started dating post divorce, with a man who also had children from his previous marriage.

Since that point, I have never seen or experienced judgement and pressure like it. Apparently as someone dating a man with children I ‘should’ know the pecking order. He too seemed very clear on what ‘normal’ should look like in that construct.

I can categorically say that i’ve never experienced absolute relationship misery like it. And the worst part? Society is the biggest driver in telling me I knew what to expect and also to give him plenty of advice stating I am not ‘normal.’

If perhaps that much pressure/ judgement hadn’t been present, I would have thrown the towel in much earlier. As it was, I twisted myself up in knots trying to conform to what other people told me I should be.

Even I look at myself and hang my head in shame in the sub standard behaviour I have tolerated. I’m still doing a lot of work on myself to understand why. A part of it (I think) is a fear of being alone.

That’s a very powerful reason as to why I ‘stayed’.
(To be clear I never cohabited or combined financial matters).

@drinkingcherrywine

Abusive men use children to control women.

It isn't by chance that women asking for clarity here are also pregnant or ttc, it is often a conscious decision by a man to be nice enough for a while to convince his female victim to "try again" - he is a manipulative predator taking advantage by cajoling a woman into pregnancy and motherhood where she is less able to leave and more likely to wait in the hope of a stable life.

Also abuse cycles through families so women raised by abusers struggle to recognise unhealthy behaviour and have no support network to escape it. Abused girls can become women who desperately want stability and a family of their own to make up for their own terrible childhood, they are susceptible to coercive abuse as a result and targeted by abusers. The cycle continues.

Absolutely this.

This is a critism of MNers not women but... here we go... far too you many MNers enjoy playing the victim.

@Goldbar

Women are beginning to vote with their feet.

They're having fewer children or they're having no children at all.

This is seen as a problem by governments and society. Note the negative narrative around 'leftover women' in China (unmarried women over 25). Also, if you look at China and the US, women's reproductive control is being rolled back. It's terrifying. When women reject men and conventional family structures, governments mobilise to put them back in their place.

I watched a documentary on the "leftover women" in China. Very depressing!

YANBU. It's not my experience, but MN has opened my eyes massively. I know that the Relationships board is by definition skewed because people generally only post threads when they have a problem, but still, the amount and level of shit that so many women put up with from their partners (and even their dates) is rage-inducing. MN has single-handedly convinced me that if I ever found myself unexpectedly single again, I would 100% definitely stay that way.

@AICM

This is a critism of MNers not women but... here we go... far too you many MNers enjoy playing the victim.

Good evening sir. I would suggest what concerns you most is that MNers refuse to be victims and actively lead other women towards the light.

I've already altered my will in case I kark it before dh and he remarries. My kids will get my share of the house.

You make some excellent points in your comprehensive post, @Opal8, but the one above requires clarification. Leaving your share of the house to your children is only possible if you hold it as Tenants in Common.

The usual way married couples hold property is as Joint Tenants, whereby the surviving partner automatically inherits the deceased partner's share.

If your will was drawn up by a solicitor - which is to be recommended - it should be safe. If not, please do check.

I fear it is going to get worse as well. In the past many women have been bailed out by boomer parents who had some financial security.

As the housing crisis gets worse and income becomes more precarious, more women are becoming trapped in abusive relationships.

Reading threads on MN has helped me to draw my boundaries in many situations and when my DH was close to having his head turned MN helped me put my foot down hard and the moment passed.

.

I wish all 14 year olds did the Freedom programme in school.

@twelveshoes

I have thought that many time before.

How do we educate young women in advocating for themselves?

The freedom programme would be a good start

Universal basic income would reduce the possibility of financial abuse

Freedom Programme vs 'Blow Jobs Are Jobs' narrative.

I know which one the teaching unions damn well should be championing.

I see this a lot on here but ub real life the parents I know both share most things (eg both parents have changed their hours for childcare, shared paternity leave, share drop offs and pick ups, shared time off when kids are ill, seem to share chores although I guess I am not privy to the detail here).

I do think there is a list of things that couples should be forced to talk about and agree before they get married.

Such as when they have kids, how will the above all be split, how will finances be shared especially if one parent has cut back on work for the kids etc. And how will time for hobbies etc be split if they have kids etc. I didnt think about any of these things when we got married and it was just luck really that I married a man whose parents genuinely shared everything (both had periods of being SAHP and then both working etc)

I also wish people would think about the language they use, I also know a lot of people who say things about my husband being great for 'helping' with the house and kids or they laugh about their husbands not spotting when things need doing because 'men don't see things in the house the same way that women do' or 'he tries his best with the washing but always mixes up dark and whites bless him so I just do it myself now' or people who dont let their boys play with 'girls toys' such as prams and hooves etc.

But whatever precautions people take, they can still end up with someone who doesn't show their true colours til they are trapped with kids which is why I will always encourage my children to be financially independent as sadly money is the answer to a lot of women being able to escape these situations

[quote BeMoreQueer]@twelveshoes

I have thought that many time before.

How do we educate young women in advocating for themselves?

The freedom programme would be a good start

Universal basic income would reduce the possibility of financial abuse[/quote]
Or their mothers role modelling the right behaviours. Pushing your daughters towards a more aspirational like is not beyond the reach of lost women, regardless of what circumstances they found themselves in.

I do think women should be much more careful about relying financially on a man. The one good thing that came out of my abusive childhood was the lesson that I can only rely on myself. This meant I was never prepared to give up my job or go part time and to o my have the number of kids (1) that I knew I could cope with if I ended up on my own.

Yes some of the stuff on here is depressing. I'd like to ensure that young women get the chance to learn those lessons.

I worry about the number of my friends who are living in abusive marriages or unhappy marriages and planning to leave as soon as the dcs reach 16.
I keep my spare room ever ready.

It is very depressing. I think while feminism might have made leaps in big things like women owning their own property and marital rape being outlawed, the societal and domestic expectations of women haven’t really changed much. The heterosexual marriage and nuclear family is still seen as the superior model in which to live.

Not enough (well, nothing) was taught in school about autonomy, choice, managing finances etc. Obviously some people end up assertive and independent despite this - I often think I must have missed that part of female socialisation that said I had to be subservient and put other’s (men’s) needs before my own because even when I was a child, my primary concern was what I wanted to do with my life when I was a grown up, and as I grew up it never occurred to me that I would one day find a man to help pay for my life, I’ve always been very single minded and put my own desires and ambitions first.

That’s not to say I haven’t had bad experiences with men - I’ve been in a couple of abusive situations where I neglected my own needs and lost my voice, and despite the fact I’m outwardly assertive and confident, it’s so easy to be sucked into abusive situations by manipulative men. I can completely see how the women posting on here end up in such situations - your sense of self and autonomy is worn away, and the longer you stay in it, the more terrifying the prospect of upending everything you know seems, even if everything you know is miserable and abusive.

I count myself very lucky that I have a determined, selfish streak (I don’t think selfishness is necessarily bad, and I think more women should embrace it) and I managed to get out of those situations and address my own mental health issues to make myself and my boundaries stronger. I think a massive factor in this is that I’ve never wanted kids, so my life and relationships have never been complicated by issues like childcare, managing work around parenting etc.

I have a friend with a kid and despite her and her husband being the most enlightened, progressive, feminist people, she still says it’s hard not to slip into 1950s stereotypes because the expectations on men and women really haven’t moved on when it comes to parenting. There is SO MUCH that holds women back, primarily the cost of childcare and the fact the bar is so low for a man to be considered a good dad. I posted on another thread about the idea of women “forgetting” to have kids, saying that instead of fertility seminars we need parenting seminars aimed at men, and for society to expect them to do 50% parenting as the bare minimum. Until that’s the norm, women will continue to find themselves attached to feckless wankers who think doing one school run a month makes them dad of the year.

As a society we need to change a lot of messaging. Financial independence is paramount, as is expecting more of men.

[quote BeMoreQueer]@twelveshoes

I have thought that many time before.

How do we educate young women in advocating for themselves?

The freedom programme would be a good start

Universal basic income would reduce the possibility of financial abuse[/quote]
Really couldn’t agree more with this. UBI, free childcare and teaching girls to live their lives first and foremost for themselves.

I do think it can be hard to walk away from a loveless marriage, for pretty boring reasons rather than emotional. I stayed working full time after having DS and so thankfully had a steady income, but knowing that leaving would mean sorting out selling the house, finding somewhere else to live, working out who would have DS and when (and dealing with that emotionally), re-budgeting to ensure there was enough to live off of and everything else just felt overwhelming. I did finally leave, but if we were childfree, renting and I had somewhere to go I would have happily waltzed out years before. My self worth didn't change, I knew I deserved better, but the responsibilities we jointly had were quite a burden.

Its very simple

Until the 1960s women didn’t work so tended to do the bulk of childcare and housework

Since the 1960’s women have started to work outside the home and with economic independence have asked the men to do an equal share of parenting and childcare.

Except men never got the memo.
They’ve had sixty years to get used to the idea fgs.

If we both work, we both share the childcare and housework. Although I know many couples who do have a fair distribution of labour, I also know many who don’t. Women need to be assertive and demand equality of labour. Eventually they will get it.

You say men never got the memo, then you say you know many couples who split things fairly. Which is it? Your thinking is muddled.

You then finish off by blaming women.

Even with the experience I had with my EXDP, I still believe in love and relationships. I like men on the whole, and being in a good relationship with great sex is fabulous, as I had in my much younger days.

However now that I have 2 DC, and am a single parent, I have a much higher standard of what I would consider acceptable behaviour from a many new man that I met for a potential relationship.

So I wouldn't tolerate dating anyone who didn't already have a roof over his head, wasn't able to run a household, didn't provide for any DC he had, or didn't see them regularly. I'd also have to see his parenting style in full effect, ensuring he wasn't a Disney Dad (looking at you EXDP) before he got anywhere near meeting my DC.

I've probably made the pool of men who I would now be prepared to date vanishingly small, but once you've come out of the other side of a bad relationship with DC, it's too high a risk to take without serious consideration.

If we both work, we both share the childcare and housework. Although I know many couples who do have a fair distribution of labour, I also know many who don’t. Women need to be assertive and demand equality of labour. Eventually they will get it.

I agree 100%. But it is so, so tiring. Sometimes it's easier just to do things yourself and not rock the boat. Standing up and fighting the insidiousness of gendered expectations just becomes a battle too far.

I find those threads very depressing (and eye-opening) reading on MN. But it isn’t my experience of real life.

Admittedly there’s only so much you can know about what goes on in people’s houses behind closed doors so perhaps lots of my friends and acquaintances are trapped in loveless marriages and I don’t know about it. But I don’t know anyone who I think falls into categories 2 or 3.

I suspect that might be because we live in an affluent commuter town outside London (you can probably narrow it down to a list of 3 or 4 if you’re familiar with the Home Counties!) and all the women I know with young children work, usually in professional jobs. Some are FT, some work 4 days and a handful work 3 days. If you get chatting to someone at a soft play or somewhere like that you can make a reliable assumption their child goes to nursery - ‘what nursery does your little one go to’ is a routine opener.

I found my real life experience to be in sharp contrast to MN where mothers who work and use nursery are often asked ‘why did you bother having kids?’ and other cliches like that.