Does the sheer volume of miserable women living their lives in service to men get you down

[BeMoreQueer]

In the many years since I first came on mn the same threads come up time and again

1. trapped in a loveless marriage, is this all there is?
2. I do everything for the kids/ house, he does nothing, im pregnant how can I get him to step up?
3. I gave up work to be a sahm and now I am treated like the nanny/ bang maid but can’t leave because I have no income or safety net

The sheer overwhelming cumulative volume of threads on these general themes make me despair for the women who don’t believe they deserve better, for the men who don’t seem to know how to be a meaningful part of family and for the generations that have grown up seeing this and are likely doomed to repeat it

Aibu?

Yabu = not my experience of mn / life
Yanbu = despair is reasonable response to unreasonable circumstances

@Pythonista

When people have great relationships they don't tend to post though

And they get absolutely hammered on here on the odd occasion that they do.

You will always see the negative stories as people don't generally post and ask for advice when they are happy and content..

But yes if the women are unhappy they should leave those circumstances

Well, it's not much of a thread, is it? "AIBU to think my husband is ace", er okay then.

Where it's more useful is somebody posting to check whether what's going on in her relationship is normal, and having 80% of other posters going "fuck no, that's awful, my partner would never ever talk to me like that".

I always think it's sad when women on here that agree/want to be SAHM say that they don't have qualifications so work on MW or NMW and it's not worth their while working if they have to pay for childcare.

When I was growing up (very working class family; both parents worked full time) there was just an expectation that I would go to uni. It wasn't a pressure, it was just always expected. I was the first generation in my family to attend third level and it was a real stretch for my parents to help me financially but I am so grateful they did. I have a lovely life now and am able to treat my parents in return.

I and my group of friends all earn either the same or more than our husbands. My dh and I work full time and pay for childcare. We are fortunate to be in that position but it came at the sacrifices our parents made for us.

Why aren't parents encouraging their daughters to get a good education so that they will have choices? There are a lot more options for 3rd level now than when I went to uni so it is possible but i think you need to grow up in an environment that encourages it.

The more I read on MN the more I feel totally abnormal. It's totally self selecting as pps have said. There was a thread a few days ago where OP was hoping she would never live with another man, and I think she was in her early twenties.

For those of us who are in happy relationships it feels v insensitive to post on so many threads. It's always viewed as bragging and often there is a snide assumption that we are naive or unaware that our husbands or partners are actually wronguns. There are so many threads about lazy, rude, entitled men but if you started one saying my DH of 25 years is supportive and loving you would be shot down in flames. It gives a very skewed idea of the reality for many people. I have lots of friends who have been together for many years as well as those who have split up for different and varied reasons. No one is saying that long term partnerships are easy and don't have their ups and downs, and of course abuse is another story, but it seems very common on MN to be very black and white. For a lot of people, relationships have ebbs and flows, times when one of you is doing the heavy lifting (emotionally and practically) and times when one of you is taking more than they are giving. I think maybe our expectations of marriage or partnerships have changed and with these changes some people may feel that they would rather be alone. Personally I still but value my imperfect relationship with DH with all the challenges and rewards that it brings.

@SortingItOut

People who have good lives don't come and post on here as that would be considered bragging.

We only see the worst of people's relationships on mumsnet.

In the real world this probably happens to 1 or 2 out of 10 couples so it is fairly common but rarely talked about.

This is it, exactly!

@Piccalino3

Yes I find it so depressing, but also I take heart from the growing number of woman who seem to realise that they don't need a man to share their home and would never live with one again.

I think the problem is children. It's difficult to have them without involving a man in a meaningful way, I don't mean for conception, I mean for finances and sheer practicality (although there seem to be a lot that are a hindrance). As I've got older I've noticed just how boring most men are. Unless they're talking about themselves, work or their hobby they have very little engagement or interest.

I do worry for my daughters. The thought of them going through all of this makes me sad. The only thing I can think is to make them financially independent - that way they have choice , to have a man, children with a man or not.

To be fair I know many boring women too. It might just be that you personally are more interested in what women talk to you about, rather than they are objectively less boring IYSWIM.

But yes we need to encourage our daughters to be financially independent. That is the key. Plus teach our sons to be equal stakeholders in family life. Both my DD and my DS are in happy, fulfilling, equal marriages (as am I and their dad) so it can be done, but I do believe it’s in the upbringing.

Its strange. Is it generational? All my friends expected to work growing up and we all did. However, there was a real twee moment in culture about 10-15 yrs ago which seemed to fetishize tbe 1950s housewife and it was all tunics and bunting and baking and Cath Kidston and handicrafts. I always found it baffling.

Is it the women who bought into all this finding out it's not quite so nice as the cosy image?

I'm not blaming the women for shit men btw. But if you set yourself up as a sort of modrrn day 50s housewife, well yeah- it was shit! What did they think it would be like?

YANBU

All the privileges I supposedly (and objectively have) but this was very nearly me.

It is so horrifying to think that this is normal for a lot of women, they just accept it because others have it worse, they're not dying, they ''love'' their lazy B, it's easier to just do it all, they're afraid to leave, they're financially dependent.............

@znaika

Its strange. Is it generational? All my friends expected to work growing up and we all did. However, there was a real twee moment in culture about 10-15 yrs ago which seemed to fetishize tbe 1950s housewife and it was all tunics and bunting and baking and Cath Kidston and handicrafts. I always found it baffling.

Is it the women who bought into all this finding out it's not quite so nice as the cosy image?

You're right about that CK fetishisation of home making. A cyclical reaction to two incomes required to get a mortgage on a 3 bed in a burb no doubt.

But a lot of women were actually cornered in to the sahm role by their own lack of earning potential. This is what happened to me. I never wanted to be cornered in to sahm but my x literally ''logicked'' me out of wanting to return to work because it was more expensive than if I stayed at home. I did try to stand up to him. He wouldn't listen.
I left with nothing but debts. But obviously I was still leaving with a big gap on my CV!

So it's not just understanding the dynamics, and understanding the economy of your own household, it's lacking the power to have a voice! That was my problem! I understood perfectly

You can try to stand up to that pressure or you can leave and sometimes unfortunately those are your options.

It's all very well for posters like xenia to say ''well what you need to do is earn as much as your x'' but I scraped 6 passes in my leaving cert. It was difficult to do that tbh. I was never going to go to university.

That doesn't make me a worthless person but the reality is that my skills aren't that valued in the workplace. They're more social, emotional and linguistic. I have a secure job now and I like it but i've never been a very well paid employee. Money is power and part of the problem is that low skilled but traditionally male jobs are paid so much better than low skilled but traditionally female jobs.

So blaming women for the fact that they end up in this situation just feels wrong to me. Yes, be aware, yes make women aware, but heaping blame on mothers who ended up stepping out of the workplace because of the economy of their own household, it just doesn't feel like progress to me, it's more blame and more misogyny.

@znaika

Its strange. Is it generational? All my friends expected to work growing up and we all did. However, there was a real twee moment in culture about 10-15 yrs ago which seemed to fetishize tbe 1950s housewife and it was all tunics and bunting and baking and Cath Kidston and handicrafts. I always found it baffling.

Is it the women who bought into all this finding out it's not quite so nice as the cosy image?

Was it really that long ago? I felt that the "vintage" thing was still going on much more recently and the "traditional wife" shtick that sort of went along as a bit of a dark subculture too.

As well as men, a large part of the issue is the fact that women are indoctrinated from infancy to have a kid, it permeates every aspect of our lives at every age- have a baby, it’s what you do, cute outfits, attention, everyone does it.

Rather than actually thinking ‘am I fit to parent? Is the upcoming food shortages and climate catastrophe something I want to force a new consumer into for my own whims? How would a kid benefit from having me as a parent?’ It’s just ‘meh’ and pick some low quality bloke to create the baby with, then realise their colossal fuck up too late. Then have one or two more, and act shocked that life is awful. Just over, and over, and over and over.

Believe women. Listen when they say having a kid is hard, think, never do anything because ‘it’s just what you do’. Never accept low quality people into your bed.

I think it's a common thing for both genders. I'm sure there are plenty of men trapped in unhappy or loveless marriages too. I think too many people feel pressure to marriage and settle for someone who they're not really in love with....that's not a good set-up for a happy life. Thankfully that's changing, the number of people staying single is rising as people are more aware that getting married just for the sake of it isn't worth it.

Also probably worth remember that we only hear one side of the story here and as other people have pointed out, people only post on here if they've a problem.

I am a single mum and quite happy with it. I think dds are generally as happy and well adjusted as they would be with two parents in the same home. I think on mn and in some aspects of society women are still valued (often by other women) on the type of man they have rather than their own achievements. Also a lot of women value the appearance of a nice home and relationship with a man even if the man is deathly dull. And there is a lot of looking down on single mums on mn.

My independence is important to me. I hope as a working professional I am setting a good example for dds. But it’s not easy.

@GoodnightGrandma

Living in a loveless marriage gets me down, but I stay for the financial security and to live in my lovely house. I will leave one day, when I decide to.

So you want his money, but don't want him?

I'm sure there are plenty of men trapped in unhappy or loveless marriages too.

Presumably the same number as women, within heterosexual ones.

also there is a lot of sneering on mn at unmarried mothers. Particularly never married mothers with lots of gleeful posts about how they are entitled to “nothing” and should have got married for their own “protection”. Very rarely does anyone point out that this is only because so many women are still dependent on men and the child maintenance system isn’t fit for purpose.

The trouble is, Sex and Relationships Education in schools, with the collusion of teaching unions, is currently promoting a magic ideology where girls' bodies are fuck-holes, blow jobs are real jobs, sex work is work, and nobody has a sex but everyone is having sex.

My local sexual health clinic where free contraception and early medical abortions are available is plagued by bloody fringe religious nutters protesting on the roundabout outside, some GPs have got very weird about about hormonal contraception, lots of boys and men shy away from 'wearing a jacket' because of some shite they've read online, and some MRA types are trying to normalise sex with under-16s through clever imagery and subversion of 'consent' dialogue.

Meanwhile the economy is tanking in a way that the financial differentials between, say, young pregnant women and their male partners/boyfriends are becoming more and more pronounced to the extent that the women have far fewer choices and freedoms, yet greater domestic drudge responsibilities as that's the only transactional chip they think they have left to play with.

Housing costs have spiralled, benefits and grants as a leg-up don't exist any more, political ideas seem to be geared towards taking rights away from women, and women's refuges have been colonised by one of the most insidious ideologies I've ever come across.

It's fucking depressing.

I think women are conditioned even now ,to expect marriage and DC. Many girls who have been to Uni and got good Careers, will often find that the hours dont fit with a family life .They will either give up working altogether, or take a PT post.Neither of these options really fit well with independence .Men seem to often change when DC arrive .They have to get used to sharing their partner ,and having less sex.The nicer ones will accept this and step up .Many however will start throwing their toys out of the pram and behaving like a Toddler! Women are conditioned to keep their DC happy and will find it hard to walk away from a bad marriage .Even many who earn well ,will have to manage as an SP without a partner .Men seem to know this ,and my DD who is on a RL site says that when men have got us where they want us , they often stop trying .Thats when bad behaviour sets in .I do find it depressing yes .My own DH is not perfect but looks like a Saint next to some of these ! We seem to be trapped by a Society that still seems to value men more than women .

Abusive men use children to control women.

It isn't by chance that women asking for clarity here are also pregnant or ttc, it is often a conscious decision by a man to be nice enough for a while to convince his female victim to "try again" - he is a manipulative predator taking advantage by cajoling a woman into pregnancy and motherhood where she is less able to leave and more likely to wait in the hope of a stable life.

Also abuse cycles through families so women raised by abusers struggle to recognise unhealthy behaviour and have no support network to escape it. Abused girls can become women who desperately want stability and a family of their own to make up for their own terrible childhood, they are susceptible to coercive abuse as a result and targeted by abusers. The cycle continues.

@SpindelWhorl

The trouble is, Sex and Relationships Education in schools, with the collusion of teaching unions, is currently promoting a magic ideology where girls' bodies are fuck-holes, blow jobs are real jobs, sex work is work, and nobody has a sex but everyone is having sex.

My local sexual health clinic where free contraception and early medical abortions are available is plagued by bloody fringe religious nutters protesting on the roundabout outside, some GPs have got very weird about about hormonal contraception, lots of boys and men shy away from 'wearing a jacket' because of some shite they've read online, and some MRA types are trying to normalise sex with under-16s through clever imagery and subversion of 'consent' dialogue.

Meanwhile the economy is tanking in a way that the financial differentials between, say, young pregnant women and their male partners/boyfriends are becoming more and more pronounced to the extent that the women have far fewer choices and freedoms, yet greater domestic drudge responsibilities as that's the only transactional chip they think they have left to play with.

Housing costs have spiralled, benefits and grants as a leg-up don't exist any more, political ideas seem to be geared towards taking rights away from women, and women's refuges have been colonised by one of the most insidious ideologies I've ever come across.

It's fucking depressing.

Excellent post.

What gets me down is the amount some mums do for their kids, even when the kids are teens or at university. Had never connected these stages could be connected but am sure they could.

Women are beginning to vote with their feet.

They're having fewer children or they're having no children at all.

This is seen as a problem by governments and society. Note the negative narrative around 'leftover women' in China (unmarried women over 25). Also, if you look at China and the US, women's reproductive control is being rolled back. It's terrifying. When women reject men and conventional family structures, governments mobilise to put them back in their place.