Does the sheer volume of miserable women living their lives in service to men get you down

[BeMoreQueer]

In the many years since I first came on mn the same threads come up time and again

1. trapped in a loveless marriage, is this all there is?
2. I do everything for the kids/ house, he does nothing, im pregnant how can I get him to step up?
3. I gave up work to be a sahm and now I am treated like the nanny/ bang maid but can’t leave because I have no income or safety net

The sheer overwhelming cumulative volume of threads on these general themes make me despair for the women who don’t believe they deserve better, for the men who don’t seem to know how to be a meaningful part of family and for the generations that have grown up seeing this and are likely doomed to repeat it

Aibu?

Yabu = not my experience of mn / life
Yanbu = despair is reasonable response to unreasonable circumstances

I was a SAHM and I don’t see it as having digs at us, it’s more that some don’t see what a precarious position they can be in.
I was aware that having child allowance paid to me meant I was getting NI years, so I’ve got a full pension.
It’s about going into it with your eyes open and protecting yourself financially.

@toocold54

Living in a loveless marriage gets me down, but I stay for the financial security and to live in my lovely house. I will leave one day, when I decide to.

This makes me so sad!
I am single, I do not have much financial security and I don’t have a lovely house but I am free and happy.

You only get one life and it’s way too short to be miserable.
I would never be with someone who didn’t make me happy.

I’m not miserable, so need to be sad. I’ve got a plan 😉

It’s no good saying ‘oh you’re just picking on me because I’m a SAHP’. No one cares if you choose to be a SAHP. Giving up your financial independence will only impact one person - you. Pretending that SAHP are somehow victimised by working parents is just avoiding the obvious issue. If you choose to give up your financial independence, you are vulnerable, and working parents are not the ones you should be blaming.

Not read the whole thread but in my rl what I see and feel deeply uncomfortable with is the financial dependency that women have on men. In some respects I’m in that situation but I’ve ensured that I have a career in a sector where I could be fulltime tomorrow and quickly work up to management if needs be. But I know women who have no ‘trade’ as such. The lack of financial freedom is astonishing.

There is also the fact that if they split their life quality would go down massively - would have to move to smaller house in not as nice part of the city. It’s a trap.

Oh just read the comments above

It does make me sad to see the number of women on here living horrible lives with awful partners. I groan inwardly reading "and I'm 6 months pregnant" I just think why, but I know there are dynamics at play I don't understand.

Another thing I don't think is ever really discussed is how society is currently in a transitional phase in terms of the way that marriage, and committed partnerships, are viewed and treated. Gone are the days when men would be viewed as a social pariah for upping and leaving their kids. There are literally no religious, social, legal consequences whatsoever. The state will pay for their children. Arguably, men that pay for their children are mugs - why would you do this when the state will cover this expense for you? (I disagree with this view very strongly but it is one some men hold, and taking emotion out of it there is some validity in the argument.)

Men, more than ever, have the option to "opt out". And with a society geared up to the "sweet shop" mentality - Tinder, Only Fans- there is a big question of why a man would want or need to be in a relationship at all. Harsh but true for a lot of men and rarely discussed. This leads to the male mentality that they are really doing a woman a favour by being in a relationship with her, if they are. Let alone doing their share of the housework etc.

Expectations around child rearing are also never discussed, seemingly. The woman always thinks the man the man will step up and do 50% at home, as well as working full time, without ever asking him or talking about it. The man thinks his share is working and financially supporting the household, and the deal is the woman entirely takes care of the children and home. Neither are wrong but the mismatch in expectations seems never to be discussed ahead of time. Resulting in the woman feeling she has a lazy entitled husband (which she does) and the man feeling unappreciated. I have seen lots of times on here "he doesn't contribute anything but money" but that's not nothing. In these situations I think often both partners are taking each other for granted.

What’s also depressing is the number of women who explain in detail how some awful useless man treats them and then ask, “how can I explain this to DP? How can I make him get it?”

And those who ask “AIbU to be upset…” when their DH has decided his “hobby” (because nobody ever just plays football or goes fishing anymore) will take up whole weekends and three nights a week, leaving them with three kids to look after. Such low self worth that they can’t see what is right in front of them.

My mum is in a loveless marriage and fuck knows why she stays, they've got no dependents together.

I'm divorced and have an 8 year old. I couldn't imagine staying in a loveless marriage for financial reasons. I had no job and no home when I left my marriage but I have freedom and you can't put a price on that. I'm not interested in a relationship and I love my life as a single parent. I had DS young and by the time I'm 40 he will be an adult. I'm planning on doing lots of travelling and having an exciting life. Marriage and homely life is not for me.

Yes, I avoid a lot of the obvious 'shit DH' threads on here, but it pops up in all sorts of places. The thread about 'Things you enjoy which are supposed to be terrible' was mostly quite funny, but the number of women who confessed to enjoying operations, illnesses and hospital stays because it was the only time they got to stop and perhaps have someone else look after them was quite an eye opener.

As someone who felt like this in my marriage (as I am sure my ex did too) I think you have to understand that many women KNOW that the grass isn't necessarily going to be any greener outside of that arrangement.

Truly solo parenting, low wages, continuing exercising of financial blackmail, badly effected offspring and so on, are all things that many women will factor in when leaving a marriage.

I felt like I was a solo parent a lot of the time when I was married but it is only when you are separated and have the children for days on end night and day, along with working out of the home and dealing with every crisis that you really know what single parenting is. I am lucky that my Ex is still involved but many aren't and women know that when they leave they are swapping one thing for another that is often not much better.

It's too simple to just say 'leave him'.

Having said that I am personally happier in my own without the complication of a husband or boyfriend.

Living in a loveless marriage gets me down, but I stay for the financial security and to live in my lovely house
Does your husband knows you don't love him any longer and you are only staying for the money and plan to leave him as soon as you don't need him any longer?

@femfemlicious

I always find it so irritating when they describe an absolute asshole doing nothing in the home then they say they have 3 kids ! And are 7 months pregnant!. Why continue getting pregnant for these horrible men!

Many of us genuinely think things are normal. I grew up in similar circumstances - and my friends would always complain about their DHs (more than I ever dared), and media is full of jokes about useless men and male characters who are good guys but still punch walls and are massively jealous. If you're in a crappy relationship - whether actually abusive or just with a lazy scrounger - you also don't tend to have the time / energy / freedom to build deeper friendships where you might see a different world.

I truly thought that my relationship was just a bit worse than average, until I read more and called Women's Aid.

@sst1234

It’s no good saying ‘oh you’re just picking on me because I’m a SAHP’. No one cares if you choose to be a SAHP. Giving up your financial independence will only impact one person - you. Pretending that SAHP are somehow victimised by working parents is just avoiding the obvious issue. If you choose to give up your financial independence, you are vulnerable, and working parents are not the ones you should be blaming.

Sigh.

Thats my point.

it isn't always a choice

Much of the time men don't turn into lay abouts until children come along so they didn't see it coming. If often isn't easy to leave because of finances and whatnot.

It's the women who walk into these situations eyes wide open. With a man who was clearly unsuitable. He has no real job (think trading bitcoin or whatever crazy scheme he can think of next rather than working). He has no money.

They have broken up 3 times in 6 years and are now back together. Friend is now 40 and thinking she wants a baby. She has just set the last of her childbearing years on fire for him.

That I don't understand.

@Piccalino3

Yes I find it so depressing, but also I take heart from the growing number of woman who seem to realise that they don't need a man to share their home and would never live with one again.

I think the problem is children. It's difficult to have them without involving a man in a meaningful way, I don't mean for conception, I mean for finances and sheer practicality (although there seem to be a lot that are a hindrance). As I've got older I've noticed just how boring most men are. Unless they're talking about themselves, work or their hobby they have very little engagement or interest.

I do worry for my daughters. The thought of them going through all of this makes me sad. The only thing I can think is to make them financially independent - that way they have choice , to have a man, children with a man or not.

this sums up how i feel so well , iv never been more contented since i lived on my own with just my dd and animals . its beyond me really why a woman would want to live with a man apart from the financial side of it . and to answer the op i agree the misery on the relationship boards is awful

I'm another one who reads these threads about awful men already knowing the last line will be "and I'm six months pregnant" or (worse) "and we are TTC". Just why.

When it comes to slightly less awful men though, it's complex. We are a social species and during reproductive age we have an urge to form pair bonds that is not easily overcome with logic. And there just aren't enough normal men to go around.

When it comes to loveless relationships its even more complex. Love can't last over the long term, but long term relationships do have other benefits. My DH is fine in terms of housework and childcare, but we aren't in love. I do prefer having children, and having help with that and just company, over being single. Some people might think that is pathetic, and maybe it is, but it's what I prefer.

I became a SAHP because we have two disabled kids. Neither could handle more than a few hours in a nursery and then were in and out of school. It was really difficult knowing I was giving up my career but it just didn’t work having two parents working, even part time. I work now part time but I’m Lucky to have a very rare term time only job. God knows what’ll happen if I lose that.

@vivainsomnia

Living in a loveless marriage gets me down, but I stay for the financial security and to live in my lovely house Does your husband knows you don't love him any longer and you are only staying for the money and plan to leave him as soon as you don't need him any longer?

My sister did that. She proudly admitted to me she was using him to fund her lifestyle and she no longer loved him.

He knew. Its obvious when someone no longer loves you. He divorced her. She is now in a small flat with 2 kids as it is all her settlement would buy. See how God damn funny she thinks her behaviour was now!

It is extremely depressing, and repetative.
What example is it to their children?
I live quite happily alone with my two sons, l don't feel like I'm missing out on much to be honest. I have no fear of growing old alone, rather that than be stuck in a dead end relationship.
I think the mistake most women make is wasting their lives looking for answers in all the wrong places, and then ending up disappointed.
Always looking outside of themselves for their happiness. Happiness is an inside job.
l also think some relationships do just come to a natural end, but because of the time invested , and the fear of being alone, some can't seem to break free.

It does depress me.
It is true within my family circle too historically and

Utterly depressing.

Yanbu - which is why I'm divorced and independent of exh.

But I've seen the other side of things- Yabu because my Ddad is a family man, a proper father and a loving husband.

I think the UK is a very patriarchal country and as such men (in general) don't really parent their kids or see family as important, neither do they see the value of having a happy, mature relationship/marriage of equals.

It is depressing but let's remember there is a lot of selection bias going on on Mumsnet that will inflate this. The website is still overwhelmingly frequented by women (heterosexual ones at that) and people post about problems far more than about things going well (just look at what happens when a women posts a positive thread about their husband on here - piranhas feeding comes to mind!). I frequent a few other relationship forums that have a much better gender balance and it may please some posters on here to know that there are plenty of men who are reportedly miserable in loveless, sexless marriages who can't see any way out. I just find that adds to the depression really myself.

That doesn't mean that what the women posting on here experience is in anyway acceptable, often I am appalled at how bad some people's relationships are and how much some women seem to tolerate this willingly. Lack of financial independence seems to be linked to this.

I agree that there are many, many threads on mn from women with 2 kids with a total bastard and usually end with "and I'm 4 months pg"...highly depressing.

It's baffling.

My sister, otoh, was adamant she wanted another baby ever though her h didn't. My sister said to her h "well I do everything anyway so why not?"

She got her wish. Her h was not a husband or father really. 2 very damaged young men is the result.

As I say, she stayed (like a pp) for the lifestyle. Then her h got ill, then became an alcoholic. He was always a pig. Her plans to stay I til the youngest went to university didn't pan out. She ended up on my doorstep after taking pills.

Their ridiculous lifestyle/spending meant they both only walked away with £10k from the sale of the marital home (it could have been paid off years before...but yknow...new cars every year, 6 holidays a year, compulsive buying of crap they didn't need ..)

No one knows what will happen tomorrow. I love my h and I believe he loves me. Doesn't mean he won't have a mid life crisis and run off with the office temp though. I'm not arrogant enough to think it's not possible.

That's why sahms (I've only known 2 dad's who were sahps but thats the gender pay gap and patriarchy for you!) Need to protect themselves and their kids.

I've already altered my will in case I kark it before dh and he remarries. My kids will get my share of the house.

I've got life insurance. No pension which is my one regret. I should get full state pension though.

My advice to any young women reading this thread is ;

No matter how much you earn our 10% away in a savings account each month

Start a paying into a pension as soon as you can

Never ever give up your sole bank account

Open a SIP

If you marry and buy and house get a legal agreement on what the split will be of you break

If you do the above and have kids then make sure they will get your share of the martial home should you die

Make a will!

Get life insurance!

Life doesn't always pan out the way you think it will do be pragmatic not romantic

When people have great relationships they don't tend to post though

Another thing I don't think is ever really discussed is how society is currently in a transitional phase in terms of the way that marriage, and committed partnerships, are viewed and treated.

Related to that, there's an absence of any expectation for serious conversations about what committed partnerships and marriage might look like, what expectations you both have of it, whether you're on the same page about how to approach things, etc etc etc. Maybe if you opt into relationship counselling, or if you get married in a church that requires you to take a pre-marriage course so you have to sit through some cringey conversations about your joint attitude to finances, but that's not most people and even then it's not much. So fewer opportunities to pick up on warning signs that your proposed partner is going to be a terrible long-term prospect.

For men especially there isn't really a cultural model of wanting or having to think about what this might look like for them, beyond "something you passively drift into because your girlfriend says she wants to get married and wants to have babies before she's 35 and probably it'll all work out." And within that of course there are men who are going to be great partners and parents and ones who aren't, and ones who wouldn't agree to have children without properly thinking it through and ones who would. But it's hard to distinguish between them when you don't have any conversations about it and you don't have any culturally agreed upon place where you should be having conversations about it.

So the men described upthread who never really wanted children, but agreed to have them anyway because their partner wanted to and are now useless at being a dad: I agree they weren't great prospects for fatherhood. But I don't agree that this is somehow the woman's fault for being unable to tell exactly what thought process is behind "yeah go on then, let's have a baby" and expecting he's putting as much thought and commitment behind it as she has.