Does the sheer volume of miserable women living their lives in service to men get you down

[BeMoreQueer]

In the many years since I first came on mn the same threads come up time and again

1. trapped in a loveless marriage, is this all there is?
2. I do everything for the kids/ house, he does nothing, im pregnant how can I get him to step up?
3. I gave up work to be a sahm and now I am treated like the nanny/ bang maid but can’t leave because I have no income or safety net

The sheer overwhelming cumulative volume of threads on these general themes make me despair for the women who don’t believe they deserve better, for the men who don’t seem to know how to be a meaningful part of family and for the generations that have grown up seeing this and are likely doomed to repeat it

Aibu?

Yabu = not my experience of mn / life
Yanbu = despair is reasonable response to unreasonable circumstances

I find it incredibly sad to read about these situations on MN.

To be frank, sometimes it reassures me that I'm not missing out after all when I look at what appears on the surface to be happy couples / families.

I chose a different route and focussed on my career and having an independent life. I've had serious relationships but never one that made me consider giving up that independence. But I was never fixated on having children so maybe that helped.

I always remember the Lady Gaga quote: “Some women choose to follow men, and some women choose to follow their dreams. If you're wondering which way to go, remember that your career will never wake up and tell you that it doesn't love you anymore.”

I do think the toxicity works both ways. I know a lot of men who are afraid to say practically anything about their relationships with women because they know they will automatically be made out to be a villain in some way.

I know my dh doesn't dare to have any opinion on my clothes because he knows we will get shot, whereas I can say all sorts to him about anything and he hasn't a leg to stand on.

I know other men in this position too. I think our society has a power imbalance that is hurting literally everyone.

Some men posted about on here are purely lazy and others seriously abusive.When I was young I was taught that divorce was bad so women stayed in bad marriages.
Until coming on Mumsnet, I really thought things had improved now the Police recognise DV and no longer say "It's just a domestic", women have more career opportunities and the internet is available to give us information and advice. It's sad and shocking that there are still so many bad relationships.
I do believe that if Mumsnet was around when I was younger, I would have divorced sooner.

I think it's a funny thing, even in an otherwise happy marriage you can (read: I do) feel this way.

My husband works very long hours and has progressed- is still progressing- impressively quickly through his career. He is a great dad to our DDs - raised the eldest as his own from age 3 - and does leave me notes saying how grateful they (he and the girls) are for everything I do... I still feel this way!

I didn't want to have DD2 at the time as it meant leaving my job that I loved, wouldn't change her for the world now of course and am even glad of the timing thanks to the pandemic coming a year after, but still. Lots of promises were made re. how he would do all these things I didn't want to do 24/7, yet here we are and now I get the "I am tired, it's my day off..." meaning he will play with them and take them out for a bit but he needs his sleep and he needs to rest because work is so hard at the moment... I know it's true so I end up doing extra. So, as predicted, no days off for me. School run all week and both kids from then until he comes in at 10ish and gets toddler to sleep.

Is it a hangover from the 50's?

The thing is, women want and get and do more - working, etc. - but still get the lions share of the house keeping and childcare in a lot of cases.

A lot of women have it much harder than I do, as I said he is generally great bless him. I just think it is ingrained in them that women don't mind these things are are "better" at them. That's just the years of practice!

Interesting question OP and I agree with you.

It dismays me to see - yet again - the not so subtle digs st sahms.

Look...being a sahm is a job. It has no respect or value in society because it It not remunerated. Do those on mn who look down on sahms feel the same way about nursery/pre school/au pairs/nannies/CMs?

No. Because they get paid to do a job - look after babies and young dc.

Not everyone can afford to work and pay for FT childcare. Not everyone has a stellar career. Some women would have to pay more in childcare than they earn. (Like me)

I would also point out some women are not sahms by choice (having dc with disabilities/sen for example - like me)

However, there is no doubt that being a sahm makes you financially vulnerable. No doubt at all.

All one can do is educate oneself about financies and pensions etc. This should definitely be taught in schools.

All savings are in my name. I own my car. I own half the house. I would get half of dhs pension if we split. I have a couple of investments.

Life hasn't quite worked out how I thought it would for me - so I do the best I can to protect myself and my dc.

I almost ended up in category 2), but for the fact that I am completely financially independent. This meant I was able to leave my relationship when I realised EXDP was never going to step up, as he believed my role was working full-time AND running the house and DC, despite the fact I earned more than double what he did.

My DC are still young, but I'll be teaching my DS to grow up respecting women, and contributing equally to household duties. I'll be teaching my DD to be financially independent, so she is aware that she should only stay in a relationship because she wants to be, not because she feels she has no other choice.

I know women in situation 3) in real-life, and it's absolutely heartbreaking.

I know my dh doesn't dare to have any opinion on my clothes because he knows we will get shot, whereas I can say all sorts to him about anything and he hasn't a leg to stand on.

You're right that sounds like your relationship is very imbalanced, but you can seek help respectphoneline.org.uk/

I think it would be helpful if more abusers had the courage to recognise how they harm their partners and seek help to manage their behaviour.

When I see these threads, I remind myself that;

A) Mumsnet is massive and not just confined in the UK. Thanks to the dominance of the English language, we have a lot of overseas posters. I am grateful for their contribution and it means we cannot assume everyone asking for help belongs to a small, wet island off the west coast of Europe. This skews our perception.

2. Happy people don't post about their lives. You see the worst because the best does not need to be solved.

3. (The Biggie). For every poster that does have the courage to ask for help, there's someone out there reading it and going "that's me". It does not even have to be in real-time; Google will show you threads for years ago. Yes, mysiogyny is on the rise, fuelled by the internet. But, thank gods, the opposite is true, too. When women come together and talk, we change lives for the better. Women have left abusive relationships, started businesses, fought for their children, helped the bereaved and homeless and campaigned for a better world, thanks to these threads. The power of one anonymous woman saying to another "you are not alone" is massive.

Sometimes it's easy to despair when you are slogging through the shit. You need to look back and see the culmulative effect.

I think it’s the message it sends to the next generation as children are likely to copy main role models and the impact it has on the children whilst in some scenarios.

Problem is I think that women expect men to change and step up when they have kids.

If he won't hoover and clean without being asked before children, he won't do it after he's had children.

If he doesn't help with the bills, planning anything etc before children, you will continue to do all admin after children.

They won't change. Don't expect them to. Even if someone says 'my partner changed', there's 10 more that didn't.

I definitely agree with the last two and have tried to set high expectations to my own DDs about what to expect and the importance of the ability to earn and provide for yourself.

I don't think the first one is necessarily just women. I also think that what to one person would be a loveless marriage, to another person would be contented companionship.

Blue eyed girl,

I've rarely seen support for sahms actually and the support I have seen is to look after your own dc whilst they are at least non verbal and can't actually tell you what's going on.

Anyone who suggests just looking after them until at least they can tell you or communicate I find slammed down, with... I had mine in nursery from 2 weeks and they are fine now.

I think it's wrong to insinuate women are vulnerable if they look after the children they bring into this world.
You might make the differential points of time, time out of a career some it doesn't matter at all.
What both parents want, many are in normal sharing relationships where it's perfectly feasible to stay at home. Many sahms do go back to work without issues at all.

What we are talking about here is a much wider issues whether the woman is a sahm or not sadly. It's about power, control or just not caring because they don't love their partner but they have gone so far down the road it's hard to back up.

I know someone in this position and sahm here is a total red herring because she can work on a whim and could go back with no issues tomorroW in fact she will go back soon.

Her issues are a madly Moody and controlling partner who doesn't want to share finances, get married or anything like that.
He's well off and she's not at the moment.

• it goes without saying my dd will earn and support herself.

What doesn't is to be with a partner who actually loves you and is not rigid or inflexible and who would never put you in a vulnerable position!!

@sst1234

Yes and there is one underlying theme. Many women let their desire for children overshadow the fact that the partner is a waster. It is so clear from so many posts that the woman just wants to have a child, the partner has no strong views or is not particularly keen on it and in some instances has been henpecked into saying he really wants a child too. Then he continues to be the feckless man he always was, but with children in the mix, it gets harder for the woman. This is not a surprise but a shock to the woman. But she proceeds to have more children with the same man. Another one is where women happily give up their hard won career to raise children full time and then complain that the partner does no childcare or house work. A painful but equitable solution (in many) instances would be to stay full time at work and employ childcare or a cleaner. Women need to take a more hard nosed approach and protect themselves against this. Not always possible but in many circumstances it is.

Agreed 100%.

If women insist on having children with dickheads, then insist on making themselves and their children entirely financially dependent on said dickhead what do they expect?

@GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing

While I was writing that, I agree with *@GoldenOmber*

I spent a long time myself thinking the right combination of words would change things. It’s incredibly hard to realise that they don’t think you matter in the same was as they do. That you’re basically a resource to them.

Totally agree with this comment.

I totally agree with the op and almost find this post too depressing to comment on. A local lady was found in a burning car last week, her husband now charged with murder. So many women share their bodies and lives with the most despicable men. I attended a wedding before lockdown where the young bride had health and learning difficulties due to a very difficult start in life.She was marrying a much older man who seemed totally devoted to her. The clergy present focused on the necessity of her obeying her husband, the head of the household and she would know God through him. It made me feel physically sick.

Its awful. It makes me rely depressed actually that we haven't moved forwards.
I've had two marriages with lazy selfish men and realistically will ever have another relationship.
They both started off really well and equally but as soon as the ring was on their behaviour deteriorated.
I have a wonderful happyife with no man in it now.

I’ve noticed this a lot in real life too. I can relate to it in one sense because it was my life with my ex only he was abusive as well as lazy and selfish. I know so many women who say that their partner is lazy, selfish, won’t lift a finger to help with his own kids, only interested in his own pleasure and how unhappy he makes them. So many of them are just like “oh well that’s life, all men are like that, what can you do?” And I want to yell “no, all men are not like that! And if they were, we as women don’t have to put up with it, and we shouldn’t!”

@Opal8 I don’t think it’s about making digs at sahm, it’s about them understanding that even though they are all loved up now they need to put protections in place (as you have) in case things turn to shit but people don’t want to heed to warnings of other peoples lessons learned the hard way because they are loved up or already pregnant

Im so relieved to hear that so many people have also learned a lot from what other people have shared here.
For me realising how much individual relationships actually form a big picture has made me a total badass when it comes to setting boundaries.

I’ve had lots of short relationships where I have happily bounced when it’s been clear this is behaviour I won’t tolerate long term so won’t tolerate at all.

DrSbaitso - if nothing pushes me first, it will be my youngest going off to Uni.
At the moment I want to maintainer family home, but when she goes to Uni I will split and get my forever bungalow.
My DH is pleasant enough so it’s not that much of a chore. But when he buys crap, opens yet another bottle of wine, and tells silly little lies now I let it go over my head, because I know I’ve got a plan.

@GoodnightGrandma

DrSbaitso - if nothing pushes me first, it will be my youngest going off to Uni. At the moment I want to maintainer family home, but when she goes to Uni I will split and get my forever bungalow. My DH is pleasant enough so it’s not that much of a chore. But when he buys crap, opens yet another bottle of wine, and tells silly little lies now I let it go over my head, because I know I’ve got a plan.

Yeah.

That was my sisters plan too.

Until she became suicidal.

I hope it doesn't reach that stage for you.

My sister divorced. She's happy now. Her grown up children less so.

Doesn't get me down because everyone makes compromises & who am I to tell someone they're living their lives wrong. Also, other things upset me a lot more if I dwell on them - like ecosystem destruction or violence against children. I must not dwell on anything so sad.

@sst1234 very wise advice

I don’t think it’s having a dig at being a SAHP
it’s just being a SAHP AND having things at your disposal should things go tits up - as a PP said quals, pension, investments, savings - is what we should be teaching kids

Also I know there are an increasing number of stay at home dads, but why is there such a stigma around it? Why is the mum always expected to give everything up?

Living in a loveless marriage gets me down, but I stay for the financial security and to live in my lovely house.
I will leave one day, when I decide to.

This makes me so sad!
I am single, I do not have much financial security and I don’t have a lovely house but I am free and happy.

You only get one life and it’s way too short to be miserable.
I would never be with someone who didn’t make me happy.