Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think GPs should do their job

579 replies

Wotnokids · 14/10/2021 06:35

Just heard the news that £250million is to be made available to GPs to 'increase the amount of face to face appointments'. AIBU to think this is just extra cash for doing their job?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
1990s · 14/10/2021 09:48

[quote DrManhattan]@1990s
I'm asking questions on a forum (that's what they are for) calm yourself down before you make yourself ill. Xxx[/quote]
Not sure if those kisses were meant to be passive aggressive - but they were!

This topic is absolutely worth getting riled up about for me.

maybemu · 14/10/2021 09:49

These type of threads make me laugh so much. Firstly they are doing their jobs. They have actually made their jobs far more efficient. You don't need a face to face appointment. Too many people use this service for a chat with someone. It is not there for that. Most problems can be solved over the phone. There is no need to go in and see someone. It is a new way to triage people and you need to get used to it. It won't go back to how it was. If anyone can give me a good reason as to why they can't start with a phone call and see if you need to be seen face to face other than you want to I'll listen.

Changednamehere56 · 14/10/2021 09:55

@maybemu ASD and chronic anxiety mean I can only do the phone triage with one known GP.

Maverickess · 14/10/2021 09:56

They were able to see patients prior to covid so why not now? Why extra money? To get a nice coffee machine and biscuits no doubt.

I'm not sure you realise, but a novel virus came to town a couple of years ago, and no one had any immunity to it, so lots of people got sick and continue to do so.
This increased the workload of the people who look after the sick, when there already weren't enough of them in a lot of places to start with, and then they came up with a vaccine that the people who look after us when we're sick were asked to vaccinate us with, on top of an increased work load due to this little virus. People also found themselves in bad situations due to the fall out of this little virus, and needed treatment and support to get through it. Services for other illnesses were stopped in order to make room for this little virus, and caused a backlog of people waiting for treatment.
And two years later, there's now a proposal to give extra funding to address that increased workload.

🤦

HorsesHoundsandHills · 14/10/2021 09:57

I'm a GP, and a long term mumsnetter. I have read these threads with increasing dismay over the past few weeks.

Firstly, £100,000 average pay is for a FT GP Partner, not the part-time, mostly salaried GPs who are working '3.5 days per week'.

A newly qualified salaried GP will take home around £55,000 per year FTE, rising with experience and/or difficulty of job to a max £88,000 FTE on the BMA salary scale. In hard to recruit areas with particularly brutal workloads, that has risen to £90,000 per year FTE for an experienced salaried GP.

GP Partners make more money (the average is around £100,000, but can be much higher than that in well-off areas. In deprived areas some partners are making less than salaried GPs!), but they also have to fit in the actual running of the business on top of the clinical workload, they have to respond to all of the diktats that come down every year from the government and NHS England, and they are personally financially liable if the business loses money or goes bust. It's an absolute mugs game. They have all of the risk of running a small/medium sized business, with none of the freedom to innovate or decide what services to offer. In addition, the way the funding works actively penalises practices with hard-to-reach populations, because the work of chasing patients for things like health checks/ annual chronic disease reviews/ cervical screening increases massively, and no allowance is made for this. Hence the disparity in GP numbers between more and less deprived areas.

I have been a qualified GP for 16 years, and earn £38,000 for my 16 hrs and 40 mins (4 sessions) per week of paid salaried clinical work. I do around 8 hours of 'unpaid overtime' every week, as I work approximately 12 hours per day on my two clinical days. I make over 150 clinical decisions per day, including 32 F2F/ telephone appointments, 1-2 home visits, 40-50 abnormal test results, 15-20 tasks (sick note extension requests, DWP/DVLA forms and admin queries, responses to e-consultations), 50-60 prescription requests, and actioning 4-6 letters from hospital consultants. In addition we have a range of requests for taxi medicals, HGV medicals, adoption medicals, insurance forms etc, which have to be fitted in.

We have not been able to hire enough GPs for many years, so we have several Advanced Practitioners who are fabulous, but this means that the cases that the GPs see are the most complex, so it's far from straightforward decision making. We are always aware that we can miss things and cause harm. Bear in mind that '3.5 days per week' translates to around 42 hours of actual clinical work.

When I'm not working clinically, I also have a 5 sessions academic job, teaching undergraduate medical students and doing research to improve medical education. This also has a lot of 'unpaid overtime' involved, but is much more flexible and less intense than clinical practice. I also have a school aged child, a DH who is a full time ITU/Anaesthetic Consultant, and ageing parents/MIL who need increasing support. GPs are humans too.

The main limitation to increasing F2F consultation in our surgery (we're currently at around 55%, so slightly below the national average of 58%), is that social distancing has still been required in clinical environments and, like most surgeries, our waiting room is too small for this. The lifting of this requirement announced today will allow us to go to our preferred option of offering patients the choice of F2F or telephone. It still won't get us more GPs. The amount of money 'for locums' sounds like a lot, but divide it between all the surgeries in England and then consider that the worsening lack of GPs has driven up locum rates to around £800 per day, and you'll see that it won't go far. The sick notes and DVLA requests are a tiny part of our workload and will make little difference.

Almost all of my GP friends have reduced our clinical hours over the past few years, rather than burn out completely and leave the profession. I will be reducing my clinical hours again at the end of this month, for a while at least. I have burned out previously trying to keep a struggling small practice going (I eventually had to leave and the practice closed), and have no intention of going down that dark road again.

Most of the 'part-time' GPs are women with young children who are not the primary breadwinner, but most 'full-time' GPs mix their clinical sessions with either teaching or management roles, as consulting is incredibly intense, and extremely hard to do well for 8 sessions per week.

These past two years have been brutal, the massive delays for hospital appointments and treatment has caused a knock on effect, as more unwell people keep coming back to their GPs in desperation when there's nothing further we can do and they were referred on months ago. There is a massive need for mental health support brought on by the pandemic, and mental health services are on their knees, so again we are supporting people. A good 80% of my appointments are patients with severe mental distress at the moment, and these appointments take far more than the 10 minutes we are given.

We and our staff are bearing the brunt of public anger and are helpless to respond, hog-tied by lack of clinicians, secondary care delays, and NHS England 'guidance'. The turnover in admin staff is massive because it's a thankless job and the abuse they take is horrific. It's increasingly dangerous, a GP in Manchester was recently assaulted and has a severe head injury, with four of their staff also sustaining lacerations in the assault by a disgruntled patient. We have plenty of volatile patients, it would not at all surprise me if something similar were to happen at my practice. The inexperienced new admin staff needing more support, and stressed GPs reducing hours in order to cope, is causing a downward spiral where there is ever more workload for fewer GPs. Those of us who are left are struggling, and the current anger being directed towards us by the press will be the straw that breaks some of the remaining camels' backs.

I know people are struggling to access their GPs, and I am truly sorry for that. My colleagues and I would love to have the support and funding to be able to offer a good service, after all, we all went into this speciality because we enjoy seeing patients and helping people. We are here, working as hard as we can, and it's intensely frustrating to know that we have multiple staff answering the phones constantly from 8am-6pm every day and it's still not enough. People can queue on our lines for hours due to sheer demand. It's frightening for us too, the thought of missing an unwell child or a cancer because of not being able to fit people in keeps many of us awake at night. Look up 'moral injury' - that it what your GPs and their staff are experiencing on a daily basis, and it is breaking us.

The GPs I know that have left or retired early have not done so lightly, but because they simply couldn't take any more stress. Please don't blame us for systemic problems that have been worsening for over a decade, despite us telling the government over and over again that this crisis point was coming, and have been thrown into sharp relief by the pandemic pressures.

ouchmyfeet · 14/10/2021 09:57

@ANameChangeAgain

We need more GPS, I heard a statistic that we have the least amount of GPs in Europe, so I'm pleased that money is being pumped in.
We need to invest money in training GPs, not short term funding for more locum GPs.

The NHS has always been quite open about the fact that it relies on immigration as we don't train enough doctors for our population. The solution isn't short term, we need the government to invest in training a lot more doctors or enable the return of immigration as a staffing solution

Neron · 14/10/2021 09:58

@Mummydoctor thank you, and I'm genuinely happy to hear that your patients give good feedback. I only wish the people in my family could have seen someone like you.

As I said, my opinion is somewhat skewed, maybe my family are just incredibly unlucky, or maybe just the service provided in my area. Who knows.

When you have both GPs and Consultants fobbing you off, not taking you seriously when these people very rarely are ill and it turns out to be severe illnesses. It gets to you. Especially if these people could see the same Consultants or GPs a whole lot quicker if they went private with them.

As I said, I wholeheartedly blame the government for cuts and putting more and more on medical professionals. I also don't think it is fair to say everyone of them is doing their job well, because there are a lot of people who haven't had a good service from the NHS, in all capacities, and it's ok to be annoyed at that, without it being seen as GP or NHS bashing.

TheUndeadLovelinessOfDemons · 14/10/2021 10:05

I'm very grateful to our lovely nurse practitioner with whom DS3 has a very necessary f2f appointment every month.

ohfourfoxache · 14/10/2021 10:08

Oh for fucks sake - not this again 🙄

Do your research and look at how horrendous working as a GP is before suggesting that they are shirking

I honestly can’t believe how blinkered and sheep-like people can be

The media are peddling the anti GP message because it will make privatisation easier. Christ alive people, look beyond what you’re being told 🤦🏻‍♀️

Parker231 · 14/10/2021 10:11

DH is a GP practice partner. The other doctors are locums as he can’t recruit anyone else even though it is a nice zone one London area. When DH leaves at the end of the month, there is no one to take on the practice and it will close. 10,000 patients will need another GP so making problems worse in their new practices due to even more patients. This is happening all over the country. The problems are going to get worse and not better.
I’m glad DH is leaving after 20 years. The hours are horrible and yes he saw patients every day throughout the pandemic and also spent eight weeks working on a Covid ward when the NHS were calling for additional doctors. Being a GP has a huge detrimental impact on their health and family life

WormYourHonour · 14/10/2021 10:11

The facts say they're doing more now than they did pre pandemic and there's less GPs to do it.

The hyperbole says different and is the ground work to start privatisation. League tables to ile on pressure to the already pressurised GPs won't help at all, it's a stock to beat the NHS with and people are falling for it because they CBA to actually research any information.

Neonplant · 14/10/2021 10:12

Have you been reading the Tory press op?

Parker231 · 14/10/2021 10:22

Surprise surprise! Sajid Javid has pulled out of speaking at the GP’s annual conference!

Maskless · 14/10/2021 10:22

My GP is STILL hiding behind "covid" and (ab)using it as an excuse not to see anyone.

I can't even get a repeat prescription.

Been told I must have a telephone call with my GP. And to get that telephone call, I have to phone the surgery every day at 0830 to be put on the waiting list for a call back.

So I put my alarm on every day for 0815, and by the time I start dialling at 0830, it's engaged. All morning. Then when it rings there is a recording saying they are now closed, "ring back tomorrow". And so it goes on, day after day. If I ring at 0829 I get a recording saying they are closed and I must ring at 0830.

My best friend has a chest infection and needs antibiotics. She tried unsuccessfully to get a phone appointment with her GP for FIVE DAYS. In the end she rang for an ambulance, they took her to A&E and she got the medication. But that isn't right! Why should A&E do the work that GPs are being (over) paid to do?

Parker231 · 14/10/2021 10:24

Maskless - the reason you probably can’t get through on the phone is because the practice are talking to other patients. There are too many patients calling each practice.

ElvisPresleyHadABaby · 14/10/2021 10:29

My friend is a GP and is exhausted. There are constant shortages of staff and equipment, shortages of money and so many patients desperate to be seen, even when it can be done over the phone. I will never understand how everywhere is painted with rainbows and "we love the NHS" signs, yet people continue to shit on GPs. They have no control over how this is being run. There is not enough funding.

1990s · 14/10/2021 10:30

Thank you for carrying on @HorsesHoundsandHills. I’m sorry you have to see these threads and the media coverage. You and all your colleagues are appreciated.

Gingernaut · 14/10/2021 10:30

I am registered at a Primary Care Centre and they have linked with technology in a big way.

With the NHS app (not Covid), I can order repeat prescriptions, submit my BP and HR readings and see fit notes.

My calls (when I get through) are triaged by Reception, filtered and I can get a call back during the day.

My record is 88 attempts, it's extremely busy.

I've been seen the same day if it was urgent.

I know I'm lucky, but this is probably how it's going to be for a lot of people from now on.

A lot of practices will probably do something like mine in the future.

GPs can only do so much and complaining about them instead of holding the government to account is only going to make it all more toxic for them.

Even if I could qualify as a doctor, there's no way I'd be a GP.

Why would you?

WormYourHonour · 14/10/2021 10:31

@Maskless

My GP is STILL hiding behind "covid" and (ab)using it as an excuse not to see anyone.

I can't even get a repeat prescription.

Been told I must have a telephone call with my GP. And to get that telephone call, I have to phone the surgery every day at 0830 to be put on the waiting list for a call back.

So I put my alarm on every day for 0815, and by the time I start dialling at 0830, it's engaged. All morning. Then when it rings there is a recording saying they are now closed, "ring back tomorrow". And so it goes on, day after day. If I ring at 0829 I get a recording saying they are closed and I must ring at 0830.

My best friend has a chest infection and needs antibiotics. She tried unsuccessfully to get a phone appointment with her GP for FIVE DAYS. In the end she rang for an ambulance, they took her to A&E and she got the medication. But that isn't right! Why should A&E do the work that GPs are being (over) paid to do?

It might be because GPs are over worked and have more patients than they can deal with.

It might be because of the anti GP rhetoric and moaning like yours that have pulled pressure into GPS and they don't believe it's worth it so leave.

High numbers of GPs have left in the last 2 years. You think someone you call 'overpaid' trains for years to just up and quit without good reason?

You're buying into the Tory distractions, they're shifting the blame from themselves to the GPs and the facts, should you care to look them up before spilling bile, proves the Tories are lying..

bellinisurge · 14/10/2021 10:31

They get extra winter money every year. This is not new money

ElvisPresleyHadABaby · 14/10/2021 10:37

I'd also like to thank the GP who saved my daughter's life a month ago when she did an e-consult about having a flare up of her asthma. They called back within hours and asked her to come in so she could listen to her chest, then put her on a nebuliser and blue-lighted her to the hospital. They are still seeing people F2F when necessary.

amymel2016 · 14/10/2021 10:38

There’s a huge lack of GPs in the U.K., mainly thanks to underfunding. The Government want us to start blaming the GPs, teachers, firemen, police etc etc rather than blaming the Government for their total incompetence.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 14/10/2021 10:39

@Wotnokids

Recent figures show average GP works 3 1/2 days and average salary is over £100k. By definition, that means some do lots more time but also some do less. Same with salary. My issue is not what they get paid but that additional funding is being provided from the existing NHS budget (so where will the cuts fall to pay for it?) for doing something they should already be doing!
That is nonsense. A whole time equivalent GP salary starts at £62,000 link, after a minimum of 10 years' training.

The average salary for a whole time equivalent GP is £100,000 link

GP contractors (partners) take home more gross, because - unlike with employees' pay - this is their pay before employers' NI and superannuation contribution (employees have this paid directly by their employers, so their pay is net of these contributions). If you earn £121,000 as a partner, your equivalent employee salary is about £99,000.

No one wants to become a GP because it's an incredibly stressful, under-resourced job. I am also an A&E doctor: my average day in general practice is more stressful than my average day in A&E - itself a stressful speciality, obviously. In A&E, you have all the resources of a large hospital at your fingertips, and there are many medical problems that you can decline to address as not an A&E issue. Your shift can be very intense but, when it ends, you hand over to someone else. As a GP, you are on your own and all the problems that no one else can be arsed to deal with, including many housing, social and safeguarding problems land on you. There is no one to hand over to - which is why many GPs end up working 12-14 hour days in our so-called part-time jobs.

If it's such an easy, over-paid job, why does no one want to do it? GP numbers per head of population have fallen 20% since 2015. No one wants to become a GP because it's a shit-storm.

borntobequiet · 14/10/2021 10:44

@HorsesHoundsandHills

Thanks for your detailed and informative post.

VladmirsPoutine · 14/10/2021 10:51

Whipping up GP resentment like this is a fast track to privatisation; an all-efficient insurance-based healthcare system. Be careful what you wish for...