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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think GPs should do their job

579 replies

Wotnokids · 14/10/2021 06:35

Just heard the news that £250million is to be made available to GPs to 'increase the amount of face to face appointments'. AIBU to think this is just extra cash for doing their job?

OP posts:
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FixTheBone · 14/10/2021 10:51

@Wotnokids

Recent figures show average GP works 3 1/2 days and average salary is over £100k. By definition, that means some do lots more time but also some do less. Same with salary. My issue is not what they get paid but that additional funding is being provided from the existing NHS budget (so where will the cuts fall to pay for it?) for doing something they should already be doing!
I doubt there's a single GP in the country working what most people would consider 3 1/2 normal (30hrs} days for £100k...

A 'day' for a lot of GPs will be ten or 12 hours to start with so pretty much a full working week for most full time workers. On top of this there are hours and hours of unpaid work through lunchtimes, late finishes, practice meetings, additional training, paperwork that get done outside that time.

My wife works as a 50% part time GP and I never see her for three whole days a week. She earns less than half than the 'figures' you've stated.

As for people suggesting £45 for a private consultation, current GPs for the NHS currently make between £15 and £22 per consultation. Out of which all the practice overheads and running costs need to be paid.

sst1234 · 14/10/2021 10:51

It’s the non clinical staff needs to be cut. In any GP practice, you can usually see 2 or 3 receptionists out front and few other non clinical staff hanging around in the back office. And the you still get the infamous nasty receptionist treatment, but that’s another show. This work should be automated, admin staff are taking up too much resource.

FixTheBone · 14/10/2021 10:52

Meant to say 3 1/2 days is equivalent to most people's working week, not that 10-12 hours is!

Sonex · 14/10/2021 10:56

Lots of people, myself included, work those hours and more - it's not just GPs that have busy, stressful jobs. And you know what, compared to people that are on their feet all day, long commutes, doing life or death surgery, caring for terminally ill people, teaching in deprived areas, I'm afraid I just don't see that they've got it any worse.

And yet I am meant to wait around for hours and try and rearrange my busy day on the off chance that a GP might call somewhwere around the appointment time.

FixTheBone · 14/10/2021 10:56

@HorsesHoundsandHills

I'm a GP, and a long term mumsnetter. I have read these threads with increasing dismay over the past few weeks.

Firstly, £100,000 average pay is for a FT GP Partner, not the part-time, mostly salaried GPs who are working '3.5 days per week'.

A newly qualified salaried GP will take home around £55,000 per year FTE, rising with experience and/or difficulty of job to a max £88,000 FTE on the BMA salary scale. In hard to recruit areas with particularly brutal workloads, that has risen to £90,000 per year FTE for an experienced salaried GP.

GP Partners make more money (the average is around £100,000, but can be much higher than that in well-off areas. In deprived areas some partners are making less than salaried GPs!), but they also have to fit in the actual running of the business on top of the clinical workload, they have to respond to all of the diktats that come down every year from the government and NHS England, and they are personally financially liable if the business loses money or goes bust. It's an absolute mugs game. They have all of the risk of running a small/medium sized business, with none of the freedom to innovate or decide what services to offer. In addition, the way the funding works actively penalises practices with hard-to-reach populations, because the work of chasing patients for things like health checks/ annual chronic disease reviews/ cervical screening increases massively, and no allowance is made for this. Hence the disparity in GP numbers between more and less deprived areas.

I have been a qualified GP for 16 years, and earn £38,000 for my 16 hrs and 40 mins (4 sessions) per week of paid salaried clinical work. I do around 8 hours of 'unpaid overtime' every week, as I work approximately 12 hours per day on my two clinical days. I make over 150 clinical decisions per day, including 32 F2F/ telephone appointments, 1-2 home visits, 40-50 abnormal test results, 15-20 tasks (sick note extension requests, DWP/DVLA forms and admin queries, responses to e-consultations), 50-60 prescription requests, and actioning 4-6 letters from hospital consultants. In addition we have a range of requests for taxi medicals, HGV medicals, adoption medicals, insurance forms etc, which have to be fitted in.

We have not been able to hire enough GPs for many years, so we have several Advanced Practitioners who are fabulous, but this means that the cases that the GPs see are the most complex, so it's far from straightforward decision making. We are always aware that we can miss things and cause harm. Bear in mind that '3.5 days per week' translates to around 42 hours of actual clinical work.

When I'm not working clinically, I also have a 5 sessions academic job, teaching undergraduate medical students and doing research to improve medical education. This also has a lot of 'unpaid overtime' involved, but is much more flexible and less intense than clinical practice. I also have a school aged child, a DH who is a full time ITU/Anaesthetic Consultant, and ageing parents/MIL who need increasing support. GPs are humans too.

The main limitation to increasing F2F consultation in our surgery (we're currently at around 55%, so slightly below the national average of 58%), is that social distancing has still been required in clinical environments and, like most surgeries, our waiting room is too small for this. The lifting of this requirement announced today will allow us to go to our preferred option of offering patients the choice of F2F or telephone. It still won't get us more GPs. The amount of money 'for locums' sounds like a lot, but divide it between all the surgeries in England and then consider that the worsening lack of GPs has driven up locum rates to around £800 per day, and you'll see that it won't go far. The sick notes and DVLA requests are a tiny part of our workload and will make little difference.

Almost all of my GP friends have reduced our clinical hours over the past few years, rather than burn out completely and leave the profession. I will be reducing my clinical hours again at the end of this month, for a while at least. I have burned out previously trying to keep a struggling small practice going (I eventually had to leave and the practice closed), and have no intention of going down that dark road again.

Most of the 'part-time' GPs are women with young children who are not the primary breadwinner, but most 'full-time' GPs mix their clinical sessions with either teaching or management roles, as consulting is incredibly intense, and extremely hard to do well for 8 sessions per week.

These past two years have been brutal, the massive delays for hospital appointments and treatment has caused a knock on effect, as more unwell people keep coming back to their GPs in desperation when there's nothing further we can do and they were referred on months ago. There is a massive need for mental health support brought on by the pandemic, and mental health services are on their knees, so again we are supporting people. A good 80% of my appointments are patients with severe mental distress at the moment, and these appointments take far more than the 10 minutes we are given.

We and our staff are bearing the brunt of public anger and are helpless to respond, hog-tied by lack of clinicians, secondary care delays, and NHS England 'guidance'. The turnover in admin staff is massive because it's a thankless job and the abuse they take is horrific. It's increasingly dangerous, a GP in Manchester was recently assaulted and has a severe head injury, with four of their staff also sustaining lacerations in the assault by a disgruntled patient. We have plenty of volatile patients, it would not at all surprise me if something similar were to happen at my practice. The inexperienced new admin staff needing more support, and stressed GPs reducing hours in order to cope, is causing a downward spiral where there is ever more workload for fewer GPs. Those of us who are left are struggling, and the current anger being directed towards us by the press will be the straw that breaks some of the remaining camels' backs.

I know people are struggling to access their GPs, and I am truly sorry for that. My colleagues and I would love to have the support and funding to be able to offer a good service, after all, we all went into this speciality because we enjoy seeing patients and helping people. We are here, working as hard as we can, and it's intensely frustrating to know that we have multiple staff answering the phones constantly from 8am-6pm every day and it's still not enough. People can queue on our lines for hours due to sheer demand. It's frightening for us too, the thought of missing an unwell child or a cancer because of not being able to fit people in keeps many of us awake at night. Look up 'moral injury' - that it what your GPs and their staff are experiencing on a daily basis, and it is breaking us.

The GPs I know that have left or retired early have not done so lightly, but because they simply couldn't take any more stress. Please don't blame us for systemic problems that have been worsening for over a decade, despite us telling the government over and over again that this crisis point was coming, and have been thrown into sharp relief by the pandemic pressures.

This. Is the only post you need to read on this thread.

Exactly how my wife (a GP) also describes her daily work.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 14/10/2021 10:57

@sst1234

It’s the non clinical staff needs to be cut. In any GP practice, you can usually see 2 or 3 receptionists out front and few other non clinical staff hanging around in the back office. And the you still get the infamous nasty receptionist treatment, but that’s another show. This work should be automated, admin staff are taking up too much resource.
So you think GPs should be booking the appointments and dealing with admin, on top of everything else? That will definitely improve appointment availability 🙄

GP practices handle hundreds of calls, emails, prescription requests, test results, referrals, and letters every day. Oddly enough, we need staff to handle them. We're always short, though, so why not apply? See just how easy it is.

Dhcfisssifjrsnxfjds · 14/10/2021 10:58

@Ciaram55

The thing I don't get is, before the pandemic you could see your GP relatively easy. Now all of a sudden you can't. Why has everything changed so suddenly? All the problems of underfunding etc were there before. Not being able to see a GP only means more people turning up at A&E units, putting pressure on them.
Totally agree with this.
Sonex · 14/10/2021 11:00

I think the GPs are capable of using technology to aid workflows, much like dentist do and the admins staff seem to constantly struggle with at my GP.

sst1234 · 14/10/2021 11:00

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow

I guess you didn’t read the post and missed the ‘automation’ bit.

ilovesooty · 14/10/2021 11:02

@borntobequiet

They were able to see patients prior to covid so why not now? Why extra money? To get a nice coffee machine and biscuits no doubt.

Assume that’s tongue in cheek, otherwise it’s the most stupid thing I’ve read in a time of reading very stupid things every day.

I'm glad someone else thought that.
unsurehowtoreact · 14/10/2021 11:04

Best friend was a GP, she was working four days a week 5am til 1am most days and not sleeping, eating, or on some days even using the toilet when needed, she wasn’t getting breaks at all and admitted at one stage she was thinking of bedding down on the staff room sofa as she was scared she’d bring COVID home .

She walked out after being told she had to consult with 100 patients a day plus admin, paperwork, managing referrals and emergency appointments - she said not safe any more .

It’s a damn shame she’s left as she was an incredible GP, she would do anything for another person .

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 14/10/2021 11:04

I guess you didn’t read the post and missed the ‘automation’ bit

You will have to point me to the AI that can handle complex patient queries and safely deal with referrals etc. It doesn't exist.

GP practices have had electronic records since around 2000 - something that hospitals have only caught up with in the last couple of years. We have adopted many IT innovations ahead of the rest of the NHS. If there was reliable AI that could replace some staff, we would use it, simply because it is so hard to recruit.

ilovesooty · 14/10/2021 11:05

@maybemu

These type of threads make me laugh so much. Firstly they are doing their jobs. They have actually made their jobs far more efficient. You don't need a face to face appointment. Too many people use this service for a chat with someone. It is not there for that. Most problems can be solved over the phone. There is no need to go in and see someone. It is a new way to triage people and you need to get used to it. It won't go back to how it was. If anyone can give me a good reason as to why they can't start with a phone call and see if you need to be seen face to face other than you want to I'll listen.
Couldn't agree more.

And I've been seen several times face to face - very quickly - when the doctor decided it was necessary. As I said I accept some practices are better than others.

Dhcfisssifjrsnxfjds · 14/10/2021 11:06

I have no problem with more funding being provided, but only if it is tied to specific metrics.

I don’t understand why GPs are so defensive - surely we can all recognise that chronic underfunding is the problem here, but also working practices. For example, it simply does not make sense for so many GPs to be ‘training’ for as many days as these threads suggest. It seems that every GP is doing this. Why? Aren’t there academic bodies that can do this and why can’t a small number of GPs do this online nationally rather than it seemingly draining resources away from primary care. I do not deny that people are working hard but there seems to be real defensiveness and a desire to protect the flexibility that might have once been a feature of the job - and phone appointments seem to be what has been seized upon as the way to achieve that when it is clearly inadequate service provision from a patient perspective.

Maverickess · 14/10/2021 11:06

@Sonex

Lots of people, myself included, work those hours and more - it's not just GPs that have busy, stressful jobs. And you know what, compared to people that are on their feet all day, long commutes, doing life or death surgery, caring for terminally ill people, teaching in deprived areas, I'm afraid I just don't see that they've got it any worse.

And yet I am meant to wait around for hours and try and rearrange my busy day on the off chance that a GP might call somewhwere around the appointment time.

Well maybe it shouldn't be about 'who's got it worse' and more about responding to the needs raised and the concerns of the people doing any job, in any industry to improve it.

Social care is flat on it's arse at the moment, but me telling GPs that I have it tough too isn't going to improve social care.

BananaBlue · 14/10/2021 11:09

Flowers to the GPs. I dread to think of how upsetting it is to be heavily criticised based on lies and mis truths. Thank you for still serving.

It may be easy to pay £50 and ‘go private’ now, but trust me if private healthcare becomes widespread the quality will also decline.

Weekend gone, pharmacist advised I call 111 to access my OOO GP. It took 12 hrs to be called back.

It’s a disgrace and I really worry for those who have no advocate.

I don’t blame the GPs,111 etc. They don’t set the framework and resourcing.

The Govt/DoHSC do.

Dhcfisssifjrsnxfjds · 14/10/2021 11:12

Also why are we paying GPs to do administrative tasks? Surely funds could be better spent on lower skilled assistants who could do this work under their supervision. Do GPs employ administrative staff other than receptionists? It may also ensure that things are not missed and patients have a person they can follow up rather than having requests go into a black hole. I have never seen any at any of the practices I have used but they may well be behind the scenes.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 14/10/2021 11:13

I don’t understand why GPs are so defensive

God yes, it's a mystery, isn't it? What with the constant negative press coverage, thread after thread on SM, including MN, saying that we are lazy, cowards etc when, in fact, we are working harder than ever.

borntobequiet · 14/10/2021 11:18

The thing I don't get is, before the pandemic you could see your GP relatively easy. Now all of a sudden you can't. Why has everything changed so suddenly?

The clue is in the word pandemic.

Iggly · 14/10/2021 11:22

The government are pulling a neat trick again and people are falling for it.

There has been a shortage of GPs before COVID came along. I remember when I moved house and needed a new surgery. There were no spaces because there is a lack of GPs.

It’s been hard to get a face to face appointment for years now. Have people forgotten??

Covid has made it worse and now there’s a backlog. So of course it’s even harder.

The government are blaming it on reluctant GPs hiding behind social distancing but the fundamental problem is that it is this government’s failure to get numbers up.

And people are falling for it. Blaming GPs instead of the Tories.

Wake up people and use a bit of logic. Ffs.

MuffinsAreJustCakesAtBreakfast · 14/10/2021 11:23

It is ironic that pre-covid, for years and years we were pleading for remote/teleaphone appointments for low level things we have to see a GP for.

Only to be told "no we can only do in the surgery at 3pm on a Wednesday and we don't care that you work a 2 hour commute away"

Now all we can get is telephone/remote appointments! 😂

BananaBlue · 14/10/2021 11:25

If I remember correctly, we used to have folk fly in form EU to do a bit of locum. So a week here or there.

Presumably that’s ended.

I’m so scared for this country. People see an issue and blame everything/one bar the root cause.

No one is listening to those in the industries, not the teachers, carers, nurses, junior doctors (remember the criticism they got for striking?) and the end result is we all lose out.

Iggly · 14/10/2021 11:26

The thing I don't get is, before the pandemic you could see your GP relatively easy. Now all of a sudden you can't. Why has everything changed so suddenly

No you couldn’t. The GP shortage has been known about for a while now and is a pre covid issue. Covid has made it worse.

unsurehowtoreact · 14/10/2021 11:26

@Dhcfisssifjrsnxfjds

I have no problem with more funding being provided, but only if it is tied to specific metrics. I don’t understand why GPs are so defensive - surely we can all recognise that chronic underfunding is the problem here, but also working practices. For example, it simply does not make sense for so many GPs to be ‘training’ for as many days as these threads suggest. It seems that every GP is doing this. Why? Aren’t there academic bodies that can do this and why can’t a small number of GPs do this online nationally rather than it seemingly draining resources away from primary care. I do not deny that people are working hard but there seems to be real defensiveness and a desire to protect the flexibility that might have once been a feature of the job - and phone appointments seem to be what has been seized upon as the way to achieve that when it is clearly inadequate service provision from a patient perspective.
The endless GP bashing is paving the way for assaults, but also pushing patients towards favouring a private care model and therefore dismantling general practice that’s free at the point of use .

Example of surgery near me, they were pulled apart in the media for weeks and said to be a crap surgery despite patient surveys and feedback saying by far the opposite (the problem was that they insisted on a face to face first model which health board were against), put out to bidders and a private company bought it over, current GPs were told they had no job anymore, private company now owns it, zero face to face GP appts as per their policy (they favour practice nurses only), previous GPs had to find new employment .

So if GPs don’t defend their position they’re very likely to eventually lose their jobs unfortunately, or end up assaulted and abused by the general public .

BananaBlue · 14/10/2021 11:27

The surgery waiting list pre Covid were bad too, yet folk seem to think it’s a Covid issue cos nurses are making tiktoks.