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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think we should be protesting

747 replies

Jessieabs · 10/10/2021 20:08

For affordable childcare.

Why are we letting the government get away with the absolute joke that is childcare in the U.K.

Over 2k per month to send 2 kids to nursery seems like madness! There should absolutely be reform to this crazy state that we’re in. Surely a huge majority of the voting population have children/have grandchildren or plan to have children, but this issue is rarely talked about at election time!

OP posts:
Pythonista · 11/10/2021 08:54

Europe is always held up as an example of support for parents/love for kids in general etc etc.

Just think if all parents had voted Remain, you would be able to live in whatever country you want. I'm sure that would have tipped the balance.

EileenGC · 11/10/2021 09:00

It varies by state. I don’t have any knowledge of the current NRW prices but I do know that (state) nursery costs are calculated according to family income everywhere - so someone on €20k will receive more subsidy than a family making €85k. Some states you pay for nursery but get free pre-school - from 2 or 3yo. Maternity leave is 12 months, on very good pay.

University is free, yes. I’m currently enrolled on a postgrad and pay €310 every 6 months. That includes an admin fee and free transport within my state, year-round. It’s the same price for undergrad students, regardless of nationality (EU/non-EU) or income.

incidentalaccident · 11/10/2021 09:05

@confettiballoons

I do think that’s great that you have four children but I am interested. Did you have private medical care when they were born? Will they be educated privately? Will they use the NHS at all? Will they be partaking of all the other services funded collectively by the tax payer?

forinborin · 11/10/2021 09:17

It’s the same price for undergrad students, regardless of nationality (EU/non-EU) or income.
I can only imagine the outrage on here if non-EU students in the UK were suddenly paying £500/ year for their study as opposed to £30K+/year.
No, I am lying, I can't even imagine it.

EileenGC · 11/10/2021 09:40

@forinborin

It’s the same price for undergrad students, regardless of nationality (EU/non-EU) or income. I can only imagine the outrage on here if non-EU students in the UK were suddenly paying £500/ year for their study as opposed to £30K+/year. No, I am lying, I can't even imagine it.
Change that to both non-EU and EU because that’s what you pay in the UK now if coming from eg France!

Saying that, even £9k for a home student is abhorrent…

forinborin · 11/10/2021 09:54

Change that to both non-EU and EU because that’s what you pay in the UK now if coming from eg France!
Yes, and I think a lot of people, even brexiteers, were shocked that EU students fell into the international fees category and quite rationally opted for other options elsewhere in the world.

Saying that, even £9k for a home student is abhorrent…
Yes, totally agree.

AlfonsoTheDinosaur · 11/10/2021 10:11

@dongke

And by not having children, childfree people save the cost of education and healthcare (not to mention the climate). So we contribute plenty thank you

Surely it's not so black & white though. What about a childfree person who travels a lot, what about a childfree person who has a chronic condition & does use healthcare. What about a childfree person who is a low earner so therefore so contributing enough tax in general.

Whatabouttery is a logical fallacy.
minatrina · 11/10/2021 10:31

@EileenGC

I live in Germany where in most states, childcare is free between the age of 12 months and 6 years old, when they start school. That’s 5 years of nursery or pre-school that the state subsidises. You only pay for food and special activities, something like 100-150€ a month max (more if choosing a private fancy nursery with ballet and French and Japanese immersion).

Tax is similar to the UK. €10k tax-free allowance. Sliding scale between 14 and 42% until you reach €60k. Between €60k and €275k it’s 42%.

I can visit my GP for free and the healthcare system didn’t collapse or stop seeing non-urgent patients during the pandemic.

You can have both but it needs a competent government.

That's a nice thought Eileen, but unfortunately the population of this island have proved time and time again that we are incapable of voting for a competent government - especially not if said competent government would, shock horror, try and improve the lives of ordinary people. Apparently we'd much rather suffer, as long as we can feel comforted by the fact that we're making sure that other people suffer more 🙃
KellyABC · 11/10/2021 12:11

So I guess everyone in here who says that childcare shouldn't be better subsidised would be happy to pay 1k a month for each of their kids' primary and secondary school places too? Why does a child being a bit younger make any difference?

OnlyFoolsnMothers · 11/10/2021 12:12

@KellyABC

So I guess everyone in here who says that childcare shouldn't be better subsidised would be happy to pay 1k a month for each of their kids' primary and secondary school places too? Why does a child being a bit younger make any difference?
Excellent point Or pay a few thousand to deliver your baby
Welshiefluff · 11/10/2021 12:22

Without those people being born to, I don't know, other people who made the choice to have children, you'd have no food, bin collection, maintained roads, doctors or anything else in your old age

It does seem that a lot of people on this thread decided that their kids are going to be doctors, nurses, carers or refuse collectors when they grow up. How very noble of them.

Pythonista · 11/10/2021 13:09

@KellyABC

So I guess everyone in here who says that childcare shouldn't be better subsidised would be happy to pay 1k a month for each of their kids' primary and secondary school places too? Why does a child being a bit younger make any difference?
It doesn't. I would be fine with that.
Pythonista · 11/10/2021 13:12

You see, that's the point. A lot of people saying it shouldn't be subsidised don't have children. Therefore they wouldn't be paying to educate other people's children.

I think free education is a good thing but to use it in an argument like that is ludicrous

Pythonista · 11/10/2021 13:14

@Welshiefluff

Without those people being born to, I don't know, other people who made the choice to have children, you'd have no food, bin collection, maintained roads, doctors or anything else in your old age

It does seem that a lot of people on this thread decided that their kids are going to be doctors, nurses, carers or refuse collectors when they grow up. How very noble of them.

Yup - where are the bankers/estate agents/ etc? Or the dossers? Grin
Viviennemary · 11/10/2021 13:18

Somebody is going to have to pay for it in the end. And no I don't think childless people or folk with grown up children should pay extra taxes to subsidise childcare. Its already more generous these days with the 30 hours scheme for 3 year olds and UC childcare element.

carolinesbaby · 11/10/2021 14:09

Some of the replies on this thread are appalling. This was a parenting website last time I looked!

Do you feel that my choice to have children and my responsibility to pay for them should extend to the costs of their schooling? What about if they need medical care? Shall we abolish state education and free prescriptions and glasses on the NHS for under 18's because their parents should have worked out if they could afford these things before getting pregnant?

LaikO · 11/10/2021 14:14

We can afford childcare no problem, but I do agree it is far too expensive. I would rather see my taxes going towards further subsidised childcare (even when mine are older) than Trident, as just one example.

InTheNameOfAllThatIsHonest · 11/10/2021 14:56

A couple of points:

tax is not just direct tax on income. Tax also comes in the way of cost of items from food to fuel and from alcohol to sugar and from energy to sanitary towels. You can't just look at how much tax we pay on our salaries/income and how much people in other countries pay. You need to look at that plus cost of living, inheritance tax, the cost of buying and selling homes, etc. Just comparing direct taxes will give you the wrong picture.

Childless people do not get anything comparable to childcare allowance or anything relating to children 'benefits.' Yet they still pay the same amount of tax as people with children. That's the unfairness. The NHS, etc, doesn't count - because it's not something childless people get but people with children don't. If you don't get this point, nobody can help you understand it.

People have children because they want children. Not because they are concerned about who will look after people when they are old, who will drive buses, etc. If they didn't want kids they wouldn't have them. They are instead having them because they want to be parents, have a family, etc.

Today's kids will indeed pay for our pensions, the services we will use, etc, when we are old. But that is neither here nor there as we are currently paying those things for today's pensioners. So we will not get anything we have not already paid for.

The government further subsidising childcare when there are many other services, of greater benefit to a much greater section of the population is, frankly, risible. Lots of people save and plan before having children in order to be able to afford whatever they want for their future children. Having kids is not a right, and certainly not one anyone should enjoy at other people's expense (literally).

ineedbanoffee · 11/10/2021 15:00

We are not talking about people’s individual choice to have children here. We are not talking about how valuable the careers they choose to do when they grow up are. We are talking about the fact that investment in children is a public good full stop. It is good for all of us to create a system that supports children as fully and richly as possible. The fact we have got so quickly onto whether women should or shouldn’t have children at certain points in their lives or with certain amounts of money in their bank accounts is just symptomatic of the massive misogyny that drives both individualistic politics and discussions about childcare.

highstreetdiestreet · 11/10/2021 15:07

@Jessieabs

Sorry, hang on a minute to everyone who is saying ‘why should I pay for your choices’. You don’t, I pay for my choices by paying 40% income tax.
You don't pay 40% on all your income.
crossstitchingnana · 11/10/2021 15:08

Why should my taxes be increased to pay for your childcare? This obsession with working, why have kids and then put them in nursery?

InTheNameOfAllThatIsHonest · 11/10/2021 15:09

Supporting children is absolutely important. It's also important that it's done by their parents/families.

Because you are then at risk of having to pay for a lot more. For example, it's also important that researchers spend years and years studying on the off chance they will discover/create something amazing for society. But do we pay their course fees? We don't. Would you be happy to? If not, why not?

The 'good for society' argument is a very emotional subject but, alas, you can rarely make good decisions without using your brain and facts.

TeachesOfPeaches · 11/10/2021 15:10

This thread is unbelievable. What's happened MN?

EasterIssland · 11/10/2021 15:21

@crossstitchingnana

Why should my taxes be increased to pay for your childcare? This obsession with working, why have kids and then put them in nursery?
but you might be happy to pay me benefits if I give up my job to take care of my children?

Cant you realise that a woman that doesn't stop working will probably help more to the society long term in general than one that has given up their career

When many of you complain about gender gap.. do you take into account that women aren't as well paid because many f the jobs are based on experience and a woman that has stopped working for 4 years + reduced their working hours to term time won't have the same experience as a man for example ?

forinborin · 11/10/2021 15:27

For example, it's also important that researchers spend years and years studying on the off chance they will discover/create something amazing for society. But do we pay their course fees? We don't.
Really sorry to break the news... but yes, we do. Even at the PhD level, the absolute majority of students are not paying the course fees from their own pocket.

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