To think we should be protesting

[Jessieabs]

For affordable childcare.

Why are we letting the government get away with the absolute joke that is childcare in the U.K.

Over 2k per month to send 2 kids to nursery seems like madness! There should absolutely be reform to this crazy state that we’re in. Surely a huge majority of the voting population have children/have grandchildren or plan to have children, but this issue is rarely talked about at election time!

[quote worriedatthemoment]@forinborin funny as I know people who have a nanny for less and I am aware of holiday allowance etc ,
£3000 a month for 2 children Is high though unless for 60 hrs a week especially if over 5 years ago and a childminder would of been cheaper again , [/quote]
They are extremely lucky then. £12/hour is a very basic starting wage for a nanny (haven't seen such rates for ages), and it is already equivalent to £3K / month total cost to the employer based on the typical 50 hours week.
Childminder here is £7/hr, so again roughly the same amount when you have two.
There's no arbitrage or a magic solution, unfortunately.

I think that rather than the 30 hours free childcare from 3 they should spend this money on 15 free hours from 1, so that it kicks in from straight after maternity leave. I think this would be much more helpful for people.

Birth rate in many countries is falling , large families in many countries are not the norm and being childfree is also more popular

I know this

the hgv crisis is also caused by poor pay and conditions but its ok rather than address this we ca just get immigrants to work and accept the poor pay and conditions

I know this too

@DancingQueen85 a far better policy would be to have funding earlier as that would help lower earners too.

@DancingQueen85

I think that rather than the 30 hours free childcare from 3 they should spend this money on 15 free hours from 1, so that it kicks in from straight after maternity leave. I think this would be much more helpful for people.

15h free in my case would have reduced the bill from 1.2 to 1k. (My son is 3 and it’s gone from 1.2 to 700). Not sure the 15h would have helped much to those families that can’t afford childcare so they give up one of the parents career

People need to understand that it’s good to pay for childcare. For our society it’s good. More money. More texts. Higher earners. Better health and prospects,

It’s such a stupid thing to say don’t pay for it, it’s “your” choice

I don’t have kids. I understand why my taxes go towards every aspect of a civilised society, if I partake in it or not.

More taxes!!!

@EasterIssland do you mean similar to what we already have? You can get help on similar depending on salary ( tax free child saving etc)
30 hrs is free you have to pay the top up
With the new way of working in many places many could use just these hrs especially couples as if they both done a hrs over 4.5 days , each do childcare half a day each
This option will most likely be available to those on higher pay as its those sort of companies that offer the flexi time / agile working
And many countries don't have the same benefits systems etc as us , taxes are spent differently or taxes are paid in other ways its not as clear cut

@Loveshelly thank you, it's actually quite scary how people don't get it.

@EasterIssland
It may not have helped you in your situation but I can think of lots or people it would help. Those on minimum wage for example, who may want to reduce to part time hours largely around when their child is at nursery.

@forinborin 50 hrs isn't a typical working week

It’s such a stupid thing to say don’t pay for it, it’s “your” choice

And if you actually believe then why pay for anything, get rid of pension credit or the NHS. very progressive!

[quote Dreamstate]@easterisland

of course I use the NHS, I also like people with children contribute to paying for it. Even for basic screening checks so its not right to say I'd never use the NHS!

And what other things am I subsiding i wont use? Of course certain benefits ro help vulnerable or disabled is something I don't begrudge

But parents wanting more subsidies can fuck off really.

Still doesn't answer my question..what do parents pay in taxes that ONLY single childfree people get?

....deafening silence from everyone[/quote]
An example. My husbands friend she was earning a good salary before childcare (around 20 years ago).
She had her children and dropped off her work as they couldn’t afford to pay childcare.

Once she came back to the market she couldn’t do the same role as before as she had lost all the experience and the market she used to work for wasn’t the same one anymore. Hence she started doing low paid jobs. She got divorced and as she couldn’t afford it she started relaying on benefits for over 10 years.

Had she gone back to work to her first salary because they could afford the subsidised childcare probably she would have not needed benefits.

How many women are in this position that they put themselves in a vulnerable financial place after having children because childcare is too expensive and time down the line they end up getting benefits , which are paid as well by the childless taxpayer ?

@EasterIssland well that doesn't make sense if she was on a good salary her childcare wouldn't be more for one child and its not her cost alone its also her husbands

[quote worriedatthemoment]@EasterIssland do you mean similar to what we already have? You can get help on similar depending on salary ( tax free child saving etc)
30 hrs is free you have to pay the top up
With the new way of working in many places many could use just these hrs especially couples as if they both done a hrs over 4.5 days , each do childcare half a day each
This option will most likely be available to those on higher pay as its those sort of companies that offer the flexi time / agile working
And many countries don't have the same benefits systems etc as us , taxes are spent differently or taxes are paid in other ways its not as clear cut [/quote]
It’s not 30h if you want to spread it across 52 weeks. It’s 21h. Which means less than Half Time when you take into account that you have to drop the child before going to work and collect them after.

30 hrs is free you have to pay the top up

It's not free then is it & it's been paid for out of taxes anyway.

With the new way of working in many places many could use just these hrs especially couples as if they both done a hrs over 4.5 days , each do childcare half a day each
This option will most likely be available to those on higher pay as its those sort of companies that offer the flexi time / agile working

I never found one nursery or childminder where a half day was 50% cheaper then a full day. And you can't really just use a place for a few hours here or there. The child & the provider would need more stability.

My best friend has gone from being a full time working on an average wage. As a single mother. To bring better off as a TA. Part time topped up with UC
The government is paying for her, but she’s not classed as unemployed.

If she has free childcare, she would pay it back in droves. It doesn’t make fiscal sense not to pay for it.

[quote worriedatthemoment]@EasterIssland well that doesn't make sense if she was on a good salary her childcare wouldn't be more for one child and its not her cost alone its also her husbands
[/quote]
I don’t know how much she was earning as this was 20uears ago. She wasn’t a high earner back then but had she not dropped off her career she’d be one nowadays instead of that shes been getting benefits. And again , how many women give up their careers for childcare and end up asking for benefits ? You just have to see Mns that there are many in that position.

I don't believe needing childcare is necessarily a "life choice". For people on average wages, I think it is probably a necessity that two parents work. Housing is ridiculously expensive, as is travel, energy, council tax, etc, etc.

In my opinion, childcare costs in this country are a disgrace, and from what I have seen many nurseries are poorly located and inadequate in many ways.

With talk of contraception and limiting families, etc, anyone would think the majority of parents have vast numbers of children. I believe the average family consists of less than 2 children.

I'm surprised and appalled that so many women are so dismissive of the real hardship that childcare costs places on many families.

@EasterIssland but these are all things you know before having children so you take that into account
I had a couple years out when mine were little as childcare would of been one wage and we are low earners ( well we were then) i purposely had mine close together to limit my time not working and worked an evening job when i had my second when my husband was home to have them
So sorry no I don't think we should be paying for a two earner high rate tax payers childcare

@dongke

I don't think childcare should be free for all & haven't said that.

@MakingM2 there is no doubt that women are choosing to not have dc & it's a valid choice but it's also clear that many people are having children later & having less because life is so expensive. Housing & childcare is all wrapped up in that.

Sorry I misunderstood. I thought the idea was a Scandinavian type one - I tend to think of those as free childcare for everyone. Not technically free, I know, but so heavily subsidised it’s as good as free.

I’m fairly sure I read that since 2013 things like Help to Buy have cost more than £30 billion. That’s £30 billion of taxpayers money that have basically been used to buy houses for individual families who couldn’t afford them despite these homes being up to 1/2 a million pounds in value apparently and for people earning up to £80k!

If we had a mass building project, houses would be affordable so families would have more money and there’d be a lot of taxpayers money available for other improvements like childcare.

People might be able to live the decent lives they are dreaming of.

If you’re going to protest about anything, housing is always going to be the most effective thing. It unlocks everything else, for everyone, and it doesn’t have the same barriers as campaigning for childcare does eg “there’s nothing in this for me, why do people with children want my taxes, etc, etc”

@ellyeth most of us agree with help for lower incomes , we have an issue with it being covered for 2 high income households as the low earners taxes would have to fund this

Anyway, the fundamentals are…
Women never protest, if they do it’s the few, and the majority tear them down.
Oh how men must love us.

[quote worriedatthemoment]@forinborin 50 hrs isn't a typical working week [/quote]
It is absolutely standard, for a nanny. If the parents work a standard 40 hour week, and have an hour of commute each way, that is 50 hours on the dot.
I am not even saying that jobs that pay enough to afford a nanny very rarely can be done in 40 hours, so the scenario above is quite idealistic.

@worriedatthemoment what you are failing to grasp is that the 30 hours is targeted at higher earners. It encourages those women to stay in work until they get those hours as opposed to losing them from the workplace. That's a better deal for the government.

Someone earning 50k is paying over 12k a yr in tax & NI. That is higher then the gov childcare subsidy.