AIBU to think holding children down for “educational” purposes is bad?

[MakingM2]

I watched “Don’t exclude me” last night and there were some interesting ideas but I’ll cut to the chase.

In one scene, if you haven’t seen it, the teacher is physically restraining a very young boy who clearly has additional needs. They are basically on the floor in the playground. She is holding him down. He is pulling her hair. It’s all fairly horrific. She claims this is “trauma informed practice”.

The deputy head said - it feels wrong when you do it and it feels wrong when someone else does it.

…and my thought is “Sir, that’s because it is wrong”. You are teaching this tiny child that a more powerful person can physically force them to submit to their will - and that this is something that is ok. You may as well get a cane out.

Having been a governor in two primaries and friends with teachers and teacher trainers, I personally can’t imagine many teachers would want to undertake this kind of “behaviour management” even if the children do become more compliant afterwards.

And it occurred to me, given we think that observing violence is bad for children, should we really be doing this type of thing?

So am I being unreasonable to think violence (of any kind, with any justification) has no place in an educational environment?

YABU - nah, this is fine, stop being so precious
YANBU - education should be violence free

@Hercisback - i have a lot of symosthy for class teachers, particularly in schools not supporting them. It always struck me that in the mainstream school i work in (in admin) we had a class with 5 children with an ehcp for such different things. Again one needing calm, quiet, routine, one diabetic, one visually impaired, one who shrieked and fidgeted and wet themselves My son at that point had just started in a special school with 6 people in a class in total - all with the same type of need.

But this is why there needs to be much more recognition that mainstream schools are SEN schools. They need much more support and training.

Yes mainstream schools are SEN schools. In some cases training would improve things. In reality finding for more staff, smaller classes and more AP is also needed.

Managing 5 'medical only' (eg diabetic, allergies, physical disability) needs in a classroom is difficult. Even with full training, you're still responsible for each child.

I do actually believe the ideal of most children being taught in mainstream would actually be very possible if schools were adequately funded. My DD who we just fought to be correctly funded in her mainstream doesn't actually need anything hugely specialist, she just needs a member of staff available to her to help her communicate (ASC and speech disorder), to read for her, to scribe for her and to provided her learning interventions. None of that should actually require a specialist setting but without the correct funding a mainstream can't provide and she was left to crisis point. She should never have got to that point if schools were funded properly in the first place.

Many children would manage in mainstream if the barriers to accessing support were broken down, accessed earlier and properly funded. But that isn't what the government are happy to provide. The victims of all of this are the children.

Restraint for pupils with SEN is about keeping them safe and stopping them from hurting others. It's not about adults exerting physical dominance over children for power reasons. Sometimes it is the safest thing to do and it's not a first resort de-escalation technique.

It typically needs a fair bit of training for the staff and parents will be aware it's a strategy they may have to use as part of the care and support for additional needs of that specific pupil.

OP you are showing how little the general public understands SEN provision and what it entails. You know some kids might need 2-3 adults to restrain them but the local authorities won't even fund 1:1?

@MichelleScarn

What was the context OP?

This is the key to it all, isn't it?

I did see the programme, and also the first episode last week. The boy who was restrained - Oscar - was a very troubled child. He was shown on camera spitting at teachers, hitting classmates. The class had to be evacuated for their own safety because he was throwing furniture around the classroom. He ran, he lashed out, he threw things and attacked adults and kids.

The teachers did say they had to keep him safe and make sure he didn't hurt himself in his blind rage. They restrained him to calm him down enough to get through to him.

"And it doesn’t hurt- in the training you have to be “restrained” and fight against it so that you know how it feels."

You don't know how it feels. You are not that child.

I've just watched that and that scene made me feel uneasy. If you keep watching when the talk to the male teacher they cut him off as he's talking about it , also when they call the nest woman out you can see how unwilling she is to hold his legs down. When she restrains the boy again the male teacher is sitting on the bench looking really uneasy.

I've taught for 11 years and we've had quite a few children like this boy. From what I saw on camera (obviously they will edit for effect or whatever so you don't see everything like being there). I would have made the area safe and basically acted like I was ignoring the behaviour. Let him rage it out and when he was calm talk to him. I feel it escalated because of being restrained!

Fwiw I thought additional needs too.

The expert seemed really patronising and I felt she restrained him because she was like don't make a fool of me on the camera. I was thinking go on lad when he said he'd follow her then ran off because I'd have done the same to someone treating me like how she was.

Sorry ranting but it did break my heart a bit.

It’s a tricky one. It should be an absolutely last resort but unfortunately in establishments where physical interventions are allowed, they can become normalised, due to the experiences and temperaments of the staff and children there.

I worked in such a place. I was and still am appalled by the idea of restraining a child and I’d do anything to avoid it. There were times when my reluctance to restrain them may have put them at risk, but there were many other times when I was glad I’d held back because I managed to resolve the situation through other means (ie talking to them or accompanying them as they attempted to do a runner). After I left I looked back on the restraints my colleagues did with horror and felt strongly that it was very wrong.

Some years later I met one of the children I’d looked after, now a young adult. We became good friends. We talked a lot about the establishment and our shared experiences of it, and to my surprise he was very complimentary about it. One day I asked him whether he thought it would have been better without the restraining and he looked at me as if I was mad and said, ‘no, because if it hadn’t restrained kids I wouldn’t have gone there’. He’s right. This place was his only chance of a childhood not spent behind bars. He was able to integrate into the local community, meet local kids, hang out in their homes being fed home cooking by their mums, but on bad days he flipped out and my colleagues restrained him. Afterwards he’d cry, give them a hug, and talk about it. He’s turned into a lovely adult and believes he owes it to this place and the ‘tough love’ he got there (and he truly was loved, but also one of the most difficult kids any of us had ever met).

So yes. It’s complicated.

In my LA, we don't restrain children anymore. We used to have annual training on safe restraint, but not now. The only time I would restrain a child now was if they were about to run out in the road. It is very difficult, and at times means whole classrooms are wrecked, or means I am punched black and blue...but still better than restraining a child - it always made me feel a bit sick when I had to do it.

And yes, schools are dealing with an ever-increasing number and variety of needs, and more funding and training is desperately required.

There was a boy at ds primary school with ADHD & related behaviour problems, he could kick off at anything, he threw chairs, desks, anything he could get hold of. His class was regularly removed from the classroom when he had a meltdown, the teacher used to lock the classroom door & then go round to unlock the outside door from the classroom to the playground, he would then go outside & run the meltdown off. As he got older he found he could climb the 10 foot fence & escape. He was placed in a SEN school from Y7. The biggest problem in this country is that children with SEN are mostly expected to be in mainstream schools, there aren't many specialist schools & education authorities will do anything to avoid placing a child in a suitable school mainly because of the cost, not because it is best for the child. My brother & sil had to go to tribunal to get my nephew who is severely autistic & has ADHD a place in the school that was named on his EHCP, they had to consider remortgaging their home to pay for the reports, a barrister for the tribunal & the tribunal, they were lucky they could afford to do this. The school is run by the Autistic Society & costs a minimum of £35k a year, he will stay there until he is 19. Parents shouldn't have to fight to get what is a human right, a right to an education in a suitable school.

@Babyfg

The expert seemed really patronising and I felt she restrained him because she was like don't make a fool of me on the camera. I was thinking go on lad when he said he'd follow her then ran off because I'd have done the same to someone treating me like how she was.

Sorry ranting but it did break my heart a bit.

She’s not being patronising, she’s adjusting hoe she is talking as she is talking to a 6 year old kid, and you know what? It worked!

I purely worked with students who have been excluded numerous times and those on mama he’s transfers and it’s not like the day to day workings of a mainstream school.

She’s an expert, taught the others how to restrain him, and hopefully made a positive change to the kids lives and their families, and the other 29 kids in the class who’s learning was being ruined day in and day out

A hold should not have been used in that situation and the hold used was against guidelines. It is not endorsed by team teach.

She is clearly not an expert if she is using that hold in that situation in a school.

Typical from MN the black lady isn’t an expert and is patronising! Surprised she’s not been called aggressive yet.

She shouldn't have been using that hold in that situation.

@User5827372728 absolutely nothing to do with race at all, it would have been am inappropriate use of restraint if she were white too.

My dd never had to be restrained at school thankfully but certainly did at home, I was taught the correct techniques. She's autistic and sometimes it's the only answer to protect herself and others, I have scars from her. She attended mainstream school because she was bright (a*'s and A's) and the special school provision she was offered do didn't do proper qualifications, only a few btecs. She's at university now

Interesting comment from Team Teach :)

@Mumofsend That is interesting, thanks for sharing.

Whoever said about it being disapproved of because the lady is black is talking utter bloody nonsense. Race has absolutely zero to do with this discussion. If feel the same whatever race she was!

Having looked the expert up her background is entirely in semh. The approach she uses is inappropriate with a child where other difficulties have not been ruled out.

She had a great rapport with the children. And there are alternatives to team teach.

Its a failing of the education and health system is that it talks about provision being 'needs led' so therefore you dont end up with a diagnosis or any assessments to find out why a child is behaving like this. it means schools are forced to treat a symptom which could have multiple causes because its so hard to access assessments. Some times the treatment works as they were good techniques for a lot of children with semh. Other times is causes damage like with my son with asd because although the symptom is the same the different cause needed something else. Its very hard when you have a child with ptsd caused by school not feel distressed if you see a child who could also be damaged by the wrong treatment. But this is a TV programme edited so the full picture might not be shared.

Unfortunately some schools use this type of approach with children who have a diagnosis that indicates this approach is the wrong one.

Sometimes I felt that they overloaded the children such as Oscar with a lot of information when talking to them, we can do this, this, this, this. There wasn’t much time to give them to process. My DC need time to process what is being said, one piece of information at a time. I know all children are different though.

When he gave her a hug at the end, that was lovely.

@Spikeyball

Unfortunately some schools use this type of approach with children who have a diagnosis that indicates this approach is the wrong one.

Yes sadly this is true too.

I think the problem with this child was that he is in a mainstream school, which doesn't have the resources to cater to his needs. It's not fair on him, his classmates or his very inexperienced teacher, who might end up leaving the profession because it's so stressful. My friend's son couldn't walk until he was 6, he is non verbal, unable to be toilet trained. Yet she was initially only offered a place for him at our local primary school (who said that they would not be able to teach him, but only to provide childcare). She had to go to the local press and contact our MP to get him a place at the special needs school.