AIBU to think holding children down for “educational” purposes is bad?

[MakingM2]

I watched “Don’t exclude me” last night and there were some interesting ideas but I’ll cut to the chase.

In one scene, if you haven’t seen it, the teacher is physically restraining a very young boy who clearly has additional needs. They are basically on the floor in the playground. She is holding him down. He is pulling her hair. It’s all fairly horrific. She claims this is “trauma informed practice”.

The deputy head said - it feels wrong when you do it and it feels wrong when someone else does it.

…and my thought is “Sir, that’s because it is wrong”. You are teaching this tiny child that a more powerful person can physically force them to submit to their will - and that this is something that is ok. You may as well get a cane out.

Having been a governor in two primaries and friends with teachers and teacher trainers, I personally can’t imagine many teachers would want to undertake this kind of “behaviour management” even if the children do become more compliant afterwards.

And it occurred to me, given we think that observing violence is bad for children, should we really be doing this type of thing?

So am I being unreasonable to think violence (of any kind, with any justification) has no place in an educational environment?

YABU - nah, this is fine, stop being so precious
YANBU - education should be violence free

but all the time the senco is saying there isn't enough evidence. By the time the senco decides there is enough evidence the child has been permanently excluded.

These are not the SENCO's decisions. 🤦🏽‍♀️ They are instructed by their LA on what they need in terms of evidence etc. By the time all this drags on the child is in KS2 and the school are told 'they can't be that bad, you've managed all this time'.

It's easy to blame schools and teachers for everything, the reality is very different.

These are not the SENCO's decisions.
Though often the SENCO does not put forward actual evidence of the child's difficulties or of adjustments they have made which should be properly funded.

LAs do lean on schools heavily to not apply for EHCPs but that's where the school could guide the parent to apply.

DS3's SENCo just ignored the information request from the LA! I thoroughly recommended doing a SAR to school to get all the information but that can cause friction

@Babyfg

We don’t know what happened behind the scenes so it’s hard to comment about that situation.

@AllWaxedOut

but all the time the senco is saying there isn't enough evidence. By the time the senco decides there is enough evidence the child has been permanently excluded.

These are not the SENCO's decisions. 🤦🏽‍♀️ They are instructed by their LA on what they need in terms of evidence etc. By the time all this drags on the child is in KS2 and the school are told 'they can't be that bad, you've managed all this time'.

It's easy to blame schools and teachers for everything, the reality is very different.

I've seen both . Schools and SENCOS applying, doing everything right,paperwork,reports (including from outside agencies) and being told no and having to appeal and start the process all over again.Or getting one, but no funding with it.

I've also known school to refuse applying for one , or telling the parents to do it themselves with no guidance or support , or deny the child's needs requires one , including a complete ignorance of the child's needs and diagnoses (yes plural).

AccidentallyOnPurpose

I'm not doubting what you're saying and I know people can only speak from their own experience, it's just the sweeping statements that are jarring.

I've appreciated and learnt from the comments of SEN parents that have responded on this thread and it's definitely good to see things from different prospectives.

"These are not the SENCO's decisions. 🤦🏽‍♀️ They are instructed by their LA on what they need in terms of evidence etc."

All schools do not behave in the same way so some of it does come down to the schools choice. Insisting a child only attends for 2 hours a day for months on end and even then often sending them home after 30 mins because they are having a bad day is a pretty clear indication that the school can't meet needs. This was not my child. It was a family I supported through tribunal. I come from a background in education so I knew very early on when my child was being treated unlawfully.

My child's sendco has said that she won't apply for an echp for my dd.
We have done it ourselves now, but would much rather have done it with the support of school.

The sendco also said that dd can't have dyslexia because she doesn't complain of letters moving, and she can't have adhd because she's so well behaved.

At primary school the sendco blocked an Ed Psych doing an assessment as 'it would open the floodgates'.

My child has not been to school since March, she has school based ptsd, barely leaves tge house and in her worst weeks stops communicating with us and stops eating. We are on an 8 month camhs waiting list.

I understand there's probably tons of great sendcos out there. Sadly in our experience, we are yet to meet one! I am so fed up of being let down by those whose jobs it is to help my dd.

I've had to restrain 2 children before in mainstream primary.
I would never do this lightly.
Always exhaust every deescslation technique available.
However, the 2 times I have used I know it was the right thing to do. Both times I have a warning, "make yourself safe or I will need to help you be safe".
But I am not going to allow a child to physically attack another child (first case involved child who had kicked another child in the head and wanted to continue.
Or risk the safety of the class (throwing tables, chairs and other objects whilst I was evacuating my classroom.
Behaviour in mainstream primary schools is getting a lot worse.

Can I also add just how long it takes for a diagnosis and how little help there is available without it?

I was told it'll be 18-24 months before my son will be assessed and that was before Covid.

But in the meantime he needs support at school and neither me, nor his teacher are quite sure what would actually work and I can't access anything locally as he isn't actually diagnosed so we're stuck in a rather vicious circle.

The school can (and should) buy in EP services and you can also access OT without a diagnosis. An EHCP goes on need, not diagnosis.
There is very little support after diagnosis.

@drspouse 2 year wait to get an EP in school at the moment.

I've not seen this yet but will take a look. Working in an SEN school it does happen occasionally and we have a lot of training which is reviewed annually. It's very much seen as a last resort and there are detailed debriefs afterwards. However, we never use the term "restraint" opting for "holding". Also, no child is ever held down on the floor. We're told this is dangerous and if a child drops to the floor you stand back. A hold is usually done in twos, walking to a safe area, standing or sitting on a chair for the shortest possible time. As pp have said, it's only when a child is likely to really hurt themselves or others. E.g I've had to do it when a lad was going to wallop another with a tree branch outside. Years ago a colleague had to rescue another member of staff who was being strangled by a teen with SEN. That was far more drastic and his legs were kicked from under him. Incredibly rare (and sad) situation though!

@CheshireChat it took 3 years of mostly waiting lists for my obvious DD to be diagnosed. She started her first year at school and diagnosis came at 5.5

Both of my DC got their EHCPs pre diagnosis and both of of EHCPs identified their individual needs rather than diagnosis. The EPs and SALT and OT etc are trained to identified the needs.

If they need extra support and need an ehcp do not let lack of diagnosis put you off.

In a lot of areas now the only realistic way of getting an ED psych in is via the EHCP process.

Really worryingly @sirzy is a lot of areas recently haven't had Ed Psychs even for EHCNAs, there's a major crisis with availability at the moment. Even independents are 6+ plus :(

Sadly there just aren't the qualified staff to up the provision and shorten waiting lists. Even if millions and millions was thrown at the system, the staffing gaps would still be a huge issue preventing much improvement. Not sure what the answer is, but retention is a real issue and as usual, the government is not doing anything to address the underlying issues. It's so sad children and their families are waiting so long for assessments to be able to access the support they need.

Waiting for an ED psych is a major hold up and if a parent is fortunate enough to have some money available to spend on getting support and provision, that is where I would spend it. The LA may choose to ignore the report but a tribunal won't. There is a wait for independent EP but it is not nearly as bad and they are 'allowed' not to be vague.

[quote Hercisback]@drspouse 2 year wait to get an EP in school at the moment.[/quote]
They can pay a private one. Loads about.

Even the private ones locally are booked up massively because of the shortage. Local authorities are using them to meet their requirements for EHCNA

😂 Good luck finding a school that will fund a private one.

@drspouse there really are not at the moment. Plus schools can't afford to. Generally EPs are now only available for ECHNA.

@Hercisback

😂 Good luck finding a school that will fund a private one.

All of my DS schools (two mainstream and one PRU) have private ones they use. One of the mainstream schools also called in the LEA one but they usually use the private one.

The PRU has a private one they often use who came at quite short notice (though for a few different pupils and just gave advice rather than seeing DS) and that was during the pandemic. I accept that some areas may be busier and/or things may have backed up even more this school year.

@drspouse please tell me where they are. I'm in Manchester and have 9 students in year 7 alone waiting. One is dangerously close to PEX already due to the injuries staff and other students are sustaining. We as a staff would have a whip around to pay for an EP if we could get one here sooner than next June.

[quote Whyarewehardofthinking]@drspouse please tell me where they are. I'm in Manchester and have 9 students in year 7 alone waiting. One is dangerously close to PEX already due to the injuries staff and other students are sustaining. We as a staff would have a whip around to pay for an EP if we could get one here sooner than next June.[/quote]
We are also in the NW and some of the ones that work in our area are based in Lancashire (i.e. not in your county but should be within commuting distance). I'm surprised TBH - though as I say it's possible there has been a backlog since we saw the last EP in about March.
Would a specialist school lend you one? Some of them have a full time one on staff but if they are 0.8 they might do private work the other day?

In contrast the PRU has been trying since April (how hard, I do not know) to find an OT to see DS weekly (again, NW) and claim they cannot find one.