AIBU to think holding children down for “educational” purposes is bad?

[MakingM2]

I watched “Don’t exclude me” last night and there were some interesting ideas but I’ll cut to the chase.

In one scene, if you haven’t seen it, the teacher is physically restraining a very young boy who clearly has additional needs. They are basically on the floor in the playground. She is holding him down. He is pulling her hair. It’s all fairly horrific. She claims this is “trauma informed practice”.

The deputy head said - it feels wrong when you do it and it feels wrong when someone else does it.

…and my thought is “Sir, that’s because it is wrong”. You are teaching this tiny child that a more powerful person can physically force them to submit to their will - and that this is something that is ok. You may as well get a cane out.

Having been a governor in two primaries and friends with teachers and teacher trainers, I personally can’t imagine many teachers would want to undertake this kind of “behaviour management” even if the children do become more compliant afterwards.

And it occurred to me, given we think that observing violence is bad for children, should we really be doing this type of thing?

So am I being unreasonable to think violence (of any kind, with any justification) has no place in an educational environment?

YABU - nah, this is fine, stop being so precious
YANBU - education should be violence free

Fgs the amount of 'what's the alternative' posts are infuriating.

The alternative is to properly support kids and their families at the first sign that the child or family need the support by properly assessing the child's needs.
It requires a change in mindset, but it should not be difficult.

We have asked for help, and been let down by health visitors, GP'S, cambs Psychologists, teachers, sendcos. We have gone on parenting courses, we have been asked to log our child's routine ('prove to us that you are not the ones damaging her'). I have a whole shelf of books on parenting a child with SEN.

Every sendco I have met has not even 10% of the understanding of my child's issues.

Sendcos are teachers. Imo they should have a degree in special needs and pcce would be a bonus.

I feel uneasy with the amount of 'but what about everyone else' posts. Able bodied, NT children have a huge privilege compared to disabled/SEN children. Every single child deserves an education, but SEN kids will need much more time, thought and funding to give them an equitable education.

We can say that kids should not be excluded or restrained because it's detrimental to them. I'd agree with you there OP.

The issue is that a blanket "no exclusions/restraints" ignores the reality of the education system. It's not ok for teachers or other students to be attacked. It's not ok for the learning of others to be continually disrupted while the teacher tries to deal with one student. The needs of the 29 others in the class are just as important as the 1 with additional needs.

Making out that teachers are unfairly excluding/restraining makes it easy for politicians to defund the school system and puts public pressure on the wrong people. It has become a big issue in the USA, where the right of the child to a 'least restrictive environment' causes untold problems for them, their teacher and their peers. But it's cheap, so politicians like it.

We need to have huge amounts of money poured into schools - and more special schools to be set up - in order for every child to succeed. Until then, I think teachers are just muddling through as best we can.

The alternative is to properly support kids and their families at the first sign that the child or family need the support by properly assessing the child's needs.
It requires a change in mindset, but it should not be difficult.

I completely agree.

However at the moment, this approach isn't funded. The blame lies entirely with the government.

And I say that as someone who has never restrained or been involved in a school exclusion, btw. Thankfully. But I know many teachers who've had to do it or utilise things like shortened school days. They're forced into that position because there is no funding or timely help to be had.

@Gardenlass

I didn't see a bad teacher though, she was doing what she thought was right and what would likely have worked with an NT child. I saw a teacher with no understanding of SEN, no understanding of children who can't do things not wont But clearly, the child could comply, as he eventually went to get the money. There was never any question that he was unable to comply, he simply chose not to.

And in doing so, it caused a meltdown.

It's not as simple as he just wouldn't do it. Didn't want to, couldn't be arsed. Do you have any knowledge of PDA or ODD?

I wish it were that simple. It's be great if we could teach our children not to have their SEN just by using clever strategies to do whatever we want them to without being asked twice!

@Hercisback I do not disagree that there is not enough funding, the funding is woefully inadequate, but its such a lazy argument.

So much can be improved by changing mindset of parents/families vs system.

Just some of the actions that could mean we were supported much quicker;

• senco refusing to read an Ed Psych report because the family went private
• GPS not referring to camhs and peads as they can only make 1 referral (but what if my child had a broken leg and asthma??)
• GP refusing to prescribe Melatonin until we are seen by camhs (who denied our first 2 referals)
• School telling me I will be more successful in my EHCP application if we apply, without their involvement.
• school not passing on My Plan to all teachers
• school not implementing My Plan actions (entirely made up of things that cost no money)
• Sendco telling me my dd doesn't have dyslexia because the letters aren't jumping around.

It really feels like a battle. Every single week something new and exhausting.

To go back to funding, please write to your mps about this, even if you have NT children. There is not the numbers of SEN parents to have a loud enough voice on our own.
Our governments are meant to serve us. By getting better funding for SEN kids, it will help us all.

@Hercisback

heavily funded but opt not to follow specialist recommendations often as it saves money.

Thats rude and not true. All the mainstream teachers I know try their hardest (often at their own financial, emotional and time expense) to support children with SEN.

I'm sorry but I'll vehemently dispute that as the parent of a complex needs child almost daily restrained and unlawfully excluded by a school in receipt of a very full funding package and detailed recommendations. 2 years on with the correct school placement and school staff teachers and support staff appropriately trained and willing to apply the very same strategies behaviour is no longer an issue and exclusions are thank God a thing of the past. Your naivety that this is a rare or false experience is blinding if you do actually work within education. A visit to any SEND parent page will confirm this. Sad facts are perhaps unpalatable but SEND training for teachers and thus their attitude towards are children is desperately poor generally. It's only after years of battling you realise actually that better systems exist but are not sufficiently available. Again all down to money.

[quote parrotonmyshoulder]@DoubleShotEspresso

‘specifically mainstream who are heavily funded‘

Most fucking idiotic comment on this thread. Where the hell do you get the notion that that there is any ‘heavy’ funding to be had?[/quote]
Idiotic really!?

I'll tell you what's fucking idiotic shall I?
A primary aged child with a package exceeding £28k for two years that said child never benefited from due to the sheer incompetence of a school still in receipt of that money who excluded them after less than an hour daily.

It's only after years of battling you realise actually that better systems exist but are not sufficiently available. Again all down to money.

With this I agree.

The rest of your post, I sympathise with your battles to get the correct support and funding. Some schools aren't great. However I know that my colleagues and I try our best with students with SEND. Often at the expense of our own children and our own wellbeing. We are open to trying a variety of strategies. We know the system stinks and try our best within it. We can't change it (we do fight to) but we really do try.

Unless you've been a teacher in a mainstream classroom with multiple opposing and differing needs, it's impossible to understand the difficulties teachers face. This is not the teachers fault, it's the government.

We can’t know the full context of this particular hold because of course the programme is edited but I agree that I don’t think it looked like a necessary situation. Oscar had tripped over something because he was out of control, but there was no indication he was going to hurt himself or anyone else further. He was in an enclosed play area.

However, restraining children is sometimes necessary. Very rarely, but sometimes.

What you saw in this programme if you watch both episodes in full is that this child could successfully be educated in mainstream provision with the right input at home and in school. So, clearly ousting every child who has behaviour difficulties into a specialist provision isn’t the answer. Schools need more funding, better training, teachers need more time for proper training and preparation.

@Hercisback

It's only after years of battling you realise actually that better systems exist but are not sufficiently available. Again all down to money.

With this I agree.

The rest of your post, I sympathise with your battles to get the correct support and funding. Some schools aren't great. However I know that my colleagues and I try our best with students with SEND. Often at the expense of our own children and our own wellbeing. We are open to trying a variety of strategies. We know the system stinks and try our best within it. We can't change it (we do fight to) but we really do try.

Unless you've been a teacher in a mainstream classroom with multiple opposing and differing needs, it's impossible to understand the difficulties teachers face. This is not the teachers fault, it's the government.

If your team are the rare minority, this is wonderfully encouraging. However, as I stated before this is not common place and SEND children generally are left in limbo . Us parents like you "know the system stinks and try our best within it. We can't change it either although we try we really do.' We though do it largely in the absence of specialist support or training. In the past years I have forfeited my own career (because teachers made it impossible to fulfil any role due to their negligence). I have trained myself in delivering specialist provisions, home schooled for over 2 years not through choice (funny enough with the right approaches all targets were exceeded), SEND Education law and battled the system in the midst of a pandemic. All along with caring 24/7 for a high needs complex child with no break since 2019. Zero support from school. No paid leave nothing. I have huge sympathy for the challenges that teachers have had to rise to in the past 18 months, but this just simply does not apply to SEND children who remain unsupported and ignored by the teachers paid to teach them, the TA's supposed to support them, the system so poorly designed it is unfit for purpose, unqualified SENCO's and yes this shitshow of a government.

I find it more than a bit trite that you state "unless you've been a mainstream teacher It's impossible to understand the difficulties teachers face." Take a moment to think what the thousands of unpaid carers in extreme circumstances have risen to and the difficulties they face with no sign ever of a break or positive change. They are permanently "on shift" and relentlessly battling, because simply nobody else will. Money may be lacking but attitudes within education (unlike your school) is seriously lacking too, this needs to change urgently.

@Hercisback

It's only after years of battling you realise actually that better systems exist but are not sufficiently available. Again all down to money.

With this I agree.

The rest of your post, I sympathise with your battles to get the correct support and funding. Some schools aren't great. However I know that my colleagues and I try our best with students with SEND. Often at the expense of our own children and our own wellbeing. We are open to trying a variety of strategies. We know the system stinks and try our best within it. We can't change it (we do fight to) but we really do try.

Unless you've been a teacher in a mainstream classroom with multiple opposing and differing needs, it's impossible to understand the difficulties teachers face. This is not the teachers fault, it's the government.

I used to teach, I agree with this. Our PGCE barely touched upon it at all, and training once in post was minimal. I taught KS1 and there were a number of children who had no funding as they were still waiting on assessments etc, which meant trying to manage a class with no support, it was an impossible task and sadly literally impossible to do the best for all of the children.

I find it more than a bit trite that you state "unless you've been a mainstream teacher It's impossible to understand the difficulties teachers face

It's true though, unless you have then you have no idea, just as someone who hasn't been in your shoes wouldn't fully understand what it is like for you.

I find it more than a bit trite that you state "unless you've been a mainstream teacher It's impossible to understand the difficulties teachers face." Take a moment to think what the thousands of unpaid carers in extreme circumstances have risen to and the difficulties they face with no sign ever of a break or positive change. They are permanently "on shift" and relentlessly battling, because simply nobody else will. Money may be lacking but attitudes within education (unlike your school) is seriously lacking too, this needs to change urgently.

I hear this I really do, having 29 others in the class to educate and see to their emotional needs is the major challenge in schools.

@DoubleShotEspresso Remember the ratio of you is 1:1 with your child when you are at home with them. Yes it's hard, yes it's crap there isn't funding, yes you're and unpaid carer, yes you and your child deserve better. However in a classroom there could be 4-5+ children with the same level of need as your child. It is impossible to support those needs properly even with the best training in the world, if you are the only adult in the room. Paying me 50k extra wouldn't mean I devote more time/energy/support to your child.

Children with SEND aren't all left in limbo. A large majority are supported (as best as we physically can) by schools. You're making huge generalised sweeping statements based on your experience of one child in the system. That's unfair.

@VladmirsPoutine

That show really doesn't sit right with me. The restraining was questionable and the conduct of that other teacher with Olivia was almost triggering - she utterly reviled Olivia.

I don't think this is fair at all. The teacher was clearly overwhelmed (and looked very young) by trying to teach a class with no apparent TA in support, with a child who was the same size as her who was physically violent towards her (eg. the incident where she crushed her hand on purpose) and constantly disrutping the class by storming out and pushing other children and tipping over bins. I thought Olivia was rather wonderful in many ways - esp her writing ability when she was composing that song, and her affection towards her mum and friends - but I couldn't deal with that behaviour when trying to teach 29 other kids and I bet you couldn't either. The teacher was honest enough to express that she was really struggling with Olivia, and humble enough to do her very best to work with the child to turn things around. She isn't paid to like a child who tries to hurt her, but she is paid to try and make things better . . . and she really did, and she did successfully. Children know when they are reviled, and if Olivia felt reviled by her teacher she would not have bought her teacher a present 'with my own money' as she so proudly said.

I haven't seen the program so can't comment on that incident but I am the parent of a severely autistic son and at 6 he had to be restricted occasionally to stop him injuring himself.if done correctly it's much less distressing than head butting a concrete playground floor.
He's older now and restraint is no longer needed but I remember his teachers and personal assistant were always more upset about restraining him than he was x

My son was excluded from a school that was shocking and it left him with ptsd. Ofsted also found their SEN support inadequete and they had to have a external behaviour specialist review and support them. They got a new senco, deputy head and head and its apparently much better now.
It is about money but it is also about how the money is used, attitudes and knowledge and skills. The school doesnt have more money but they are supporting children much better. Its not really about individual teachers either but a whole school approach. The teachers need support from higher up too.
Its too late for my son but one of the sadest things is his teacher wanted to help but couldnt but perhaps 2 years later she could have.

@Ricekake

I find it more than a bit trite that you state "unless you've been a mainstream teacher It's impossible to understand the difficulties teachers face

It's true though, unless you have then you have no idea, just as someone who hasn't been in your shoes wouldn't fully understand what it is like for you.

And yet it's fine for children to be excluded whilst schools receive the funding? I am in no disputing the difficulties we all face, I am stating it is unreasonable and unacceptable for these children to e repeatedly ignored and afforded no priority or provision.

unreasonable and unacceptable for these children to e repeatedly ignored and afforded no priority or provision.

The provision is scant. Even with funding, there are not enough places. I could give you a list of students who should be in AP as mainstream isn't the correct place for them. But they will never get there because there's not enough AP places. Until the government sorts the funding, children suffer.

@DoubleShotEspresso my sons last school got 32k to have him in for 45 mins 3 times a week for the whole academic year. Id love to know what they did with it. Theres zero accountability

[quote Hercisback]@DoubleShotEspresso Remember the ratio of you is 1:1 with your child when you are at home with them. Yes it's hard, yes it's crap there isn't funding, yes you're and unpaid carer, yes you and your child deserve better. However in a classroom there could be 4-5+ children with the same level of need as your child. It is impossible to support those needs properly even with the best training in the world, if you are the only adult in the room. Paying me 50k extra wouldn't mean I devote more time/energy/support to your child.

Children with SEND aren't all left in limbo. A large majority are supported (as best as we physically can) by schools. You're making huge generalised sweeping statements based on your experience of one child in the system. That's unfair.[/quote]
Yes it certainly is crap. I am not suggesting it's the same, strangely enough the one thing exclusions/the necessity for parents to fill the gaps left by the education system means we are forced into the 1:1 ratio unwillingly. Hideously illogical solution when the very problem necessitating this is the fact that the failure to implement to socialisation strategies only serves to exacerbate the problem. Funding means you are not the only person in the room, in our case at one point there were in fact two designated supporting adults, who incredibly worked in partnership to exclude further and isolate in an intervention room, rarely lasting more than half an hour before I was called to collect as they were untrained and incapable of applying the strategies that are now working beautifully. The net result of this was two years of lost formal education. Paying you or anybody else 50k extra wouldn't solve the problem no. A bit of willingness, humanity and plain common sense would have done that nicely.
Where are the funds that paid for 32 hours supervision and support? Where are the promises made o shiny mission statements on school websites pledging full support for SEND? The answers lie in yet more unanswered emails as schools get to choose what/how/if to apply support. The money is wasted and of no benefit to thousands of children because LA'S fail to hold schools to account. Our LA upheld every complaint as did the LGO.... but that doesn't help those already failed does it?

Children with SEND are sadly left in limbo, if teachers took the time to visit many of the charitable organisations or specialists websites you will see this. The majority are failed miserably, you are defending the indefensible here. Which documentaries like this prompts threads such as this. Your school sounds great but to make a general sweeping statement based on one school is unfair and unhelpful. Exclusions are the highest they have ever been, LA's finding in parent favour is also a its' highest. And yet still, the teacher default button is to dismiss SEND parents and tell them we don't understand. We do.
And still we persevere.
Your school efforts sound wonderful but to assume my experience is rare is hugely inaccurate and unfair.
A refreshing and welcome change would be for teachers and parents to work together, this thread is testament to the need for this to happen.

And yet it's fine for children to be excluded whilst schools receive the funding? I am in no disputing the difficulties we all face, I am stating it is unreasonable and unacceptable for these children to e repeatedly ignored and afforded no priority or provision.

That doesn't relate to my post at all, I haven't alluded at all to thinking that.

The training is pretty good if it’s the team teach stuff. And it doesn’t hurt- in the training you have to be “restrained” and fight against it so that you know how it feels. It does feel wrong but when you have a child mid-tantrum hell bent on attacking other children it’s the only option you have. You can’t physically drag them from the classroom because that WOULD hurt them. So you hold them bodily until they calm down and, if the child is likely to be receptive, you talk to them.

Children with SEND are sadly left in limbo,
Some children with SEND are left in limbo. Fixed it for you.

Exclusions aren't the highest they have ever been, the recording of them has changed. In fact permanent exclusions are at quite a low.

In every school I have worked in, teachers have tried their best to work with parents. I'm sorry you've had such a bad experience. Most teachers have humanity and common sense. They also have limits on what is possible in one day.

I have literally had two students with almost opposing classroom ideals in one room for a year. Speak to either parents and they would have slated me. One liked a calm, structured, routine led environment. The other liked a change of activity every 10 minutes, made constant noise and needed to choose where they sat. My.job was literally impossible.