AIBU to think holding children down for “educational” purposes is bad?

[MakingM2]

I watched “Don’t exclude me” last night and there were some interesting ideas but I’ll cut to the chase.

In one scene, if you haven’t seen it, the teacher is physically restraining a very young boy who clearly has additional needs. They are basically on the floor in the playground. She is holding him down. He is pulling her hair. It’s all fairly horrific. She claims this is “trauma informed practice”.

The deputy head said - it feels wrong when you do it and it feels wrong when someone else does it.

…and my thought is “Sir, that’s because it is wrong”. You are teaching this tiny child that a more powerful person can physically force them to submit to their will - and that this is something that is ok. You may as well get a cane out.

Having been a governor in two primaries and friends with teachers and teacher trainers, I personally can’t imagine many teachers would want to undertake this kind of “behaviour management” even if the children do become more compliant afterwards.

And it occurred to me, given we think that observing violence is bad for children, should we really be doing this type of thing?

So am I being unreasonable to think violence (of any kind, with any justification) has no place in an educational environment?

YABU - nah, this is fine, stop being so precious
YANBU - education should be violence free

I did think MG seemed to immediately pick up that Olivia was a very confused little girl, I would be interested to know what the 1:1 sessions were but can totally understand the need to respect Olivia's privacy. Olivia did seem genuinely baffled by her teacher's reaction to her (when the teacher said she was giving attitude with how she talking and looking at her etc). I do think it was a genuine difficulty in reading social situations being misinterpreted as being cheeky etc

While I agree that children who need this kind of intervention may not be best-suited to a mainstream environment, the reality is that is where a lot of them are and they have to be managed somehow. IME children end up in mainstream (when they possibly shouldn't be) either because it is really hard to get through the process of diagnosis and proof that they actually need a specialist placement* OR because the parents refuse to acknowledge that their child needs specialist provision and insist that they stay in mainstream. Sadly, I have seen several children who only ended up getting the help they needed after being permanently excluded from mainstream school.

*even when it is obvious to every adult in the school that deals with them and even then it can be hard to get a place for them.

Disabled people have the right to be educated just like anyone else. Give us local schools that provide an education at least as good as that available in MS and I’m sure far fewer parents will opt to have their children treated this way to scrabble for the crumbs of education they might get in mainstream,

My daughter had this awful technique used on her by a PE teacher who was oddly thrilled to do so. His reasoning was that she was getting anxious and he feared she may harm herself! She was getting anxious because he was shouting in her face to calm down when she was coughing and spluttering after going underwater at swimming and unable to get out. So this massive man pinned my nine year old daughter first to the wall and then to the cold floor with her arms at her sides, just wearing a soaking wet swimming costume and utterly terrified, in front of her whole class. There was no reason to do it and there was never any discussion that these techniques would be used at this little village mainstream primary. All students were shocked and frightened. The parent helper said he seemed to genuinely relish his power over my little girl. It was she who insisted the school call me immediately to explain what had taken place. The first time in my life I felt sheer nuclear anger.

How long do you reckon he kept his job?

Spoiler alert- he was on leave by the end of the day.

Even when working with children who can and do harm themselves and others, is wrong to do this when there are so many other distraction and de-escalation methods. Knowing these in a job role made me even more disgusted at what that man did to my daughter. Ground holds are an advanced team teach method and the use of them is prohibited in most situations.

@Mumofsend

‘They receive 26k EHCP funding. 1.3k PP. 4k bums on seats for her. So over 30k for her.’

I’m not doubting you, but utterly amazed at the difference between this and what is available as an absolute maximum in my area. I wonder if this sort of difference is why we are all at loggerheads on this thread, as well as the differences between individual schools. What I could do with that amount of money! I honestly cannot get anything like that.

I thought the evidence was that children who are PEX are far less likely to end up with a suitable education. I think Special Needs Jungle have put together something on it before

@parrotonmyshoulder it took me and the school causing merry hell with the LA for it. Up until March she was on 16k funding

DS3 started off on £2,700 top up funding, by Tribunal the LA were offering £9,500 top up. (with the school responsible for the first 6k)
His school fees are now over £60,000 and his travel is about? £25,000/30,000

[quote parrotonmyshoulder]@Mumofsend

‘They receive 26k EHCP funding. 1.3k PP. 4k bums on seats for her. So over 30k for her.’

I’m not doubting you, but utterly amazed at the difference between this and what is available as an absolute maximum in my area. I wonder if this sort of difference is why we are all at loggerheads on this thread, as well as the differences between individual schools. What I could do with that amount of money! I honestly cannot get anything like that.[/quote]
@parrotonmyshoulder are you speaking as a parent or a teacher? Because if you're a teacher, you almost certainly have no idea what funding is provided for specific children in your area, in fact probably not even in your school. I actually don't even know myself what my child's education is now costing, but I don't care because it's right for him and that's all that matters to me. Legally speaking, there is no "absolute maximum" and any LA that tries to say otherwise is lying.

@CatJumperTwat

Restraining someone is not "violence."

What do you do if a child is attacking someone and pulling their hair? Ask them nicely not to?

No, the policy in the special needs school where I worked was that you put your hands on top of their hands so they can't pull away, then you calmly wait for the situation to pass. If it takes half an hour then so be it, they get bored eventually. This school is fantastically resourced though and I get that in a busier, or under resourced situation, things may have to be dealt with differently.

@BoobsOnTheMoon our LA put funding on the bottom of each EHCP.

Some LAs have an unlawful cap on funding but its hard work to get it challenged

Differentiated work is an expectation, but realistic expectations of workload have to come into it too.

Absolutely. The workloads piled onto English teachers I read about here are insane - totally unsustainable and unhealthy for the teacher.

Yes, the child has a right to an education at their level but that should not come at the cost of an unreasonable workload for the teacher. But again - politicians love to waffle on about differentiation because it costs feck all and pushes all responsibility to the teacher. It's about what is cheapest and not what is best for the school community.

I have my Higher needs funding statement in front of me. The maximum for full time support, meant to cover 35 hours a week, is £11,931 plus the £6000 notional funding. I've never seen any higher except one year when we had a child with 50 hours funding as she needed 1.5 TAs a week.

@spanieleyes and that is the problem, that doesn't cover the cost of full time support :(

I don't equate restraint with violence. I saw the programme too; the woman who had come into the school to work with the very challenging pupils was absolutely lovely with them, very caring, supportive and encouraging.

It certainly doesn't. And I also have to pay, out of that, for a yearly Ed psych report (£900) a yearly specialist teaching report ( 8 hours for an assessment at £95 per hour) any training the 1:1 TA needs ( as the pay is so poor, the TAs don't tend to last long so training is pretty much ongoing!) and it's also meant to pay for a portion of my time too!

@spanieleyes that is horrendous

My DD is funded 26k for her SEN to the school. Her weekly SALT is not included within that as the SALT bills the LA direct. She receives 30 minutes direct SALT a week and her plan allows for 30 minutes per term for a mini-progress report and a full report for AR each year.

Within that:

she has full time 1-1 between two members of staff with an additional 90 minutes a day overlap so they can do all the extras. I know prep time is rarely included (Shes been sharing a TA with another child all week so that's going well)

The training required (Around her speech disorder, autism and what we believe to be severe dyslexia).

Time for her work to be appropriately differentiated (which isn't happening :( ) Time for the SENCO. A contribution for the resources she uses. She also has some bits of equipment but nothing more than £20-£30 individually

All her interventions are provided by the full time TA cover.

The biggest obstacle for what she needs is the training. She has quite a severe speech disorder and because of her autism the usual approaches don't work so those who work with her do need training on how to just incorporate it into daily interactions with her.

As her parent I self funded her SALT assessment initially as the NHS provision was so dire it couldn't be classed as provision. That cost £735. I also self funded a new OT at a cost of £580. To be fair to the LA they didn't argue with the SALT provision and have taken it on. I think even they recognised a child with a severe speech disorder having 3x 30 minute SALT sessions in two years wasn't good enough.

The LA do her EP but she really needs a new one but that is a cost of approx £2k. She also will need a formal dyslexia assessment which I will probably fund.

To be fair, differentiated work is an expectation of teaching.

If a child can’t access the curriculum it is the teachers role to help him access it. It shouldn’t really take thirty minutes, assuming not NQT/ECT.

Point 1 - my secondary school has the policy of no differentiation, only scaffolding. As a subject, we are completely mixed ability. One of my classes has one student with a reading age of 6 whilst the top of the group has a reading age of 14+. It is incredibly difficult to support all of these students.

Point 2 - I've been teaching ages. Specialist work can easily take 30-45 minutes +. That + planning multiple lessons per day is really difficult.

@User5827372728

So you agree the expert was right to restrain a child that wasn't hurting anyone or them self dangerously, and encouraging other members of staff to do so.

I'm sure the staff in the nest want their hair pulled on a regular basis because an expert didn't like a child not listening to her.

....and did it work? Is it a long term strategy you'd be happy to use?

@KingdomScrolls

My aunt is a deputy head in a SEN specialist school, she's very experienced and qualified. In addition she's vegan, Buddhist and against all forms of violence and aggression which gives you an usually into her mindset. Sometimes they have to restrain the children to prevent them causing harm to themselves or others. This is a fully trained strategy and there are mechanisms individual to each child to support their emotional regulation and safety, it's a last resort and the welfare of the child is paramount throughout. Some of the eleven year olds they have are as big as young adults and just as strong. I haven't seen the programme you're talking about, but context is key and you won't always get that with a television editing.

Absolutely this ^

While I agree that children who need this kind of intervention may not be best-suited to a mainstream environment, the reality is that is where a lot of them are and they have to be managed somehow.
A mainstream environment, like a specialist school (apart from e.g. hoists, warm water pools etc. for physical disabilities) consists of children and adults and a building.
It is perfectly possible for properly trained adults to exist in a mainstream school as well as in a specialist school. For existing adults to get training (and if it would take a personality transplant like some teachers I've met, to move them on to tell NT year 6s that they are choosing to behave badly instead of telling children with SEND ). For schools to have enough space to have a child who can't be in the classroom all the time (you'd think they would all have something but we've had two schools refuse to take my DS because of this issue). For the LEA to train TAs properly instead of saying "this TA has loads of experience", 20 years helping Reception children to read is NOT the same as working with a child with challenging behaviour.

@Feenie

It's about stopping a child from being violent and hurting themselves and others, and absolutely should only be done by trained professionals. Of course it isn't violent. And yes, it's horrible to have to do, but the alternative (child hurting others/themselves) is worse.

What would you prefer?

This.

So many people thinking they know it all about teaching

My child is clear that being restrained is violent towards him. He may be wrong, I mean he's only 9 and has SEN, but he says people hit him, hurt him etc. We also sometimes have to do it, of course WE are not trained because nobody will train us.
In fact, school does NOT have to do it as often as they think they do.

"because it is really hard to get through the process of diagnosis and proof that they actually need a specialist placement* OR because the parents refuse to acknowledge that their child needs specialist provision and insist that they stay in mainstream."

Or because there are no special school places or because the school leave it too long to apply for an ehcp.
There are children starting school with diagnoses who clearly will not cope with the sensory environment of a mainstream classroom but schools are waiting years to apply for an ehcp. In the meantime the child is only allowed in a few hours a day, is being excluded for distressed behaviour because they cannot cope with being in the classroom but all the time the senco is saying there isn't enough evidence. By the time the senco decides there is enough evidence the child has been permanently excluded. All special schools are full so the child gets a few hours a day tutoring from someone who doesn't understand ASC. The only way out of this is for the parent to go to tribunal. It is an appalling way to treat a disabled child but this is not unusual.

because the parents refuse to acknowledge that their child needs specialist provision and insist that they stay in mainstream
We acknowledge that our DS needs specialist provision but we disagree that this should be in the only specialist schools available to us.
If there were specialist settings where he could learn social skills from children who are NT we'd happily put him in that setting. There are no RP (specialist units) in mainstream schools available to us and he is being physically attacked more or less daily by the other children in his PRU who have SEMH needs so funnily enough we don't want him in a permanent setting where this will continue to happen.

I also happen to disagree philosophically with the idea of educating ND and NT children separately (I also disagree with educating White and Black children or boys and girls separately but I'm not given as much grief for that).