AIBU to think holding children down for “educational” purposes is bad?

[MakingM2]

I watched “Don’t exclude me” last night and there were some interesting ideas but I’ll cut to the chase.

In one scene, if you haven’t seen it, the teacher is physically restraining a very young boy who clearly has additional needs. They are basically on the floor in the playground. She is holding him down. He is pulling her hair. It’s all fairly horrific. She claims this is “trauma informed practice”.

The deputy head said - it feels wrong when you do it and it feels wrong when someone else does it.

…and my thought is “Sir, that’s because it is wrong”. You are teaching this tiny child that a more powerful person can physically force them to submit to their will - and that this is something that is ok. You may as well get a cane out.

Having been a governor in two primaries and friends with teachers and teacher trainers, I personally can’t imagine many teachers would want to undertake this kind of “behaviour management” even if the children do become more compliant afterwards.

And it occurred to me, given we think that observing violence is bad for children, should we really be doing this type of thing?

So am I being unreasonable to think violence (of any kind, with any justification) has no place in an educational environment?

YABU - nah, this is fine, stop being so precious
YANBU - education should be violence free

Or want them in appropriate specialist provision not just anywhere that isn't mainstream.

Don’t agree with your options as no I don’t think violence is fine, but I do think restraining a kid in some circumstances is necessary

@BiLuminous

It was the behavioural woman that did it, not a teacher, which showed to me that it must have been warranted as she will have lots of experience of when that is appropriate. That's what I hope anyway. The show was quite upsetting. Jack reminds me of my own son and the £10 note thing was a much worse incident imho.

The £10 note thing was ridiculous.

Ok of course he should have done as he was asked in an ideal world but the teacher escalated that situation. Placed a demand on him. He didn't comply. Instead of reading the signs and supporting him to be able to comply, she placed more and more demands on him until he kicked off. Then when he eventually did go and get the £10, he was about to take it to her desk like she'd asked him to over and over again when she stopped him from going back into the classroom and changed instructions. No wonder the poor kid couldn't cope.

I didn't see a bad teacher though, she was doing what she thought was right and what would likely have worked with an NT child. I saw a teacher with no understanding of SEN, no understanding of children who can't do things not wont and one who seems to have not heard of ASD/PDA/ADHD etc before!

@twirlinginthesnow

It’s easy when you sit back and watch it unfold, but in a class with 29 others I can see how it happens. I work sorely with teens who have been excluded numerous times and I work to put support in place to keep them in school, for many a mainstream school isn’t the right place for them

Restraint of anyone of any age should always be a last resort, but nevertheless it is always going to happen. I agree that there needs to be more non-mainstream provision to meet the needs of students who cannot cope in mainstream, but even in the most specialised environment there will be times when restraint is needed and where there is no next and more suitable option.

I have a friend who was a head teacher in a specialist school and during his time there he managed to bring incidences of restraint down by over 90% - but it was still necessary at times and it was still used. Sometimes there are no other options.

Of course violence has no place in an education setting. That's the main reason that restraint is sometimes necessary.

I didn't see a bad teacher though, she was doing what she thought was right and what would likely have worked with an NT child. I saw a teacher with no understanding of SEN, no understanding of children who can't do things not wont
But clearly, the child could comply, as he eventually went to get the money. There was never any question that he was unable to comply, he simply chose not to.

@allwaxedout I would quite like specialist placement for my child as mainstream isn't suitable for her. Have you tried to sort out a specialist placement?

We have it agreed by the LA for specialist which is only part of the battle.

We have a choice of three school

A) school that can meet her ASC needs but not her learning needs because she is academically capable and the schools don't cater for academically capable

B) a school which the head described as being the last resort when their behaviour is so out of control there is nowhere else to go. This was only suggested as they could meet her learning needs. She would have been in a class of 8 extremely violence prone boys.

C) a base where she spends 50% of her time in mainstream and 50% in the hub but has even less SALT and OT available than her current fully mainstream.

The choices are grim. The choices can't actually offer her anything more than her current mainstream can.

In the end I fought my LA. Her mainstream now receives 25k just for her to ensure her needs are met but it took one hell of a battle.

I would love her to be in the right setting for her but instead I've had to make a workable solution out of several bad choices.

@Gardenlass that shows your lack of understanding of SEN.

There are a range of specific, authorised holds, developed to restrain for many reasons. Trained staff can carry out the specific holds and need to document both the hold and the reasons etc afterwards.

When they are used, it's because they are required.

42Mumofsend @Gardenlass that shows your lack of understanding of SEN.

How, exactly? The poster suggested that a child with SEN (as she supposed Oscar to be) would be 'unable' to comply, and not simply 'unwilling' to comply. He clearly demonstrated that he was able to comply. What is it that I am apparently missing here?

I would quite like specialist placement for my child as mainstream isn't suitable for her. Have you tried to sort out a specialist placement?

I'm not talking about parents who explore the option and don't find anything suitable.

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

There are a range of specific, authorised holds, developed to restrain for many reasons. Trained staff can carry out the specific holds and need to document both the hold and the reasons etc afterwards.

When they are used, it's because they are required.

Have you seen every restraint that's ever taken place? Because some are not required at all. Like the one in the programme OP is referring too.

@Gardenlass masking, pda, fawning, just for a start.

@Gardenlass the boy was able to comply after he had had time to process it. Look at it from his perspective, he doesn't really understand why he was told to hand it over, she hasn't explained why or that he would get it back, it was completely unexpected to him. He goes into panic mode fight/flight. After getting upset and into panic mode he complies but that doesn't address the underlying issue.

For my DD it is crucial she understands why. If she understands why x is being asked of her "DD I need to look after your money so it does not get lost" and then given 2-3 minutes to process it before being asked again then she's fine, in the scenario presented on the episode, that would have caused the same reaction from her.

@KingdomScrolls

My aunt is a deputy head in a SEN specialist school, she's very experienced and qualified. In addition she's vegan, Buddhist and against all forms of violence and aggression which gives you an usually into her mindset. Sometimes they have to restrain the children to prevent them causing harm to themselves or others. This is a fully trained strategy and there are mechanisms individual to each child to support their emotional regulation and safety, it's a last resort and the welfare of the child is paramount throughout. Some of the eleven year olds they have are as big as young adults and just as strong. I haven't seen the programme you're talking about, but context is key and you won't always get that with a television editing.

This sadly is not the case. Training for teachers is largely inadequate in understanding special needs and identifying workable strategies. The grim reality is that restraint and exclusions are the default mode for the majority of schools ,specifically mainstream who are heavily funded but opt not to follow specialist recommendations often as it saves money. Truly terrifying as was the sheer ignorance demonstrated in that programme.

I understand that sometimes it might be necessary to restrain someone, but I have no idea what manner would be' best'.

I still have memories of another child being carried from the playground when I was at primary school. He was kicking and screaming, and a teacher held each limb. As an observing child I was very traumatised by the whole incident, and even now, 40+ years later it makes me feel very uncomfortable.

I agree that a child being restrained sounds awful, but what is the alternative? Other children and staff are attacked? Some of these stories from teachers and TAs are horrific. We would never accept people throwing chairs, hitting and biting in the workplace yet children and teaching staff just have to put up with it in schools? And what becomes of the struggling child when they are too big to be restrained? What happens to them as adults? How do they learn not to throw/bite/hit?

It all comes down to money. Or lack of it!

This.

In an ideal world every child's needs would be met.

In reality, children are placed in a classroom with 30 others for at least two years of assessment, diagnosis etc before any AP has a chance of being found.

I work in a SEN school, children are restrained if they are acting in a way that is a danger to themselves or others.

heavily funded but opt not to follow specialist recommendations often as it saves money.

Thats rude and not true. All the mainstream teachers I know try their hardest (often at their own financial, emotional and time expense) to support children with SEN.

I have only watched episode 1 of this. I find it very difficult watching because I know some of the techniques being recommended would really quickly escalate a situation with a child with ASD or PDA . I dont know much about adhd but I suspect the same. But I also know that the same behaviours can have different causes so i have seen a child with attachment issues respond much better to this sort of firm boundary/timer approach and some where the parents have just got overwhelmed due to a crap life event whose children are reacting to that who also respond well to it. This programme didnt explore the why of these behaviours at all.
Just for those talking about SEN schools - my son witnessed an horrific restraint at an SEN school where an ambulence was called. I attended the debrief and it was very clear that the restraint hugely escalated the situation. I get a bit tired of mainstream parents suggesting all children with behaviour issues need to go to an SEN school. Childrem with SEN dont all have behaviour ossues and have as much right to an education free from violence as any mainstream child. What children with behaviour issues need is the right support for that behaviour. In some instances that might be a special school in some instances that will be better techniques in mainstream.

I think she was reacting to the child and making him feel safe when he was spinning out...as the DM to an amazing DS who is ASD and prob ADHD, I thought the lady with the background with excluded children was amazing but was shocked that many of her principles are fairly basic in any SEN training (that I have done for my DS) and yet the teachers were not equipped with these, SEN or not these things help every child in my mind...showing respect, boundaries, routine, now and next, treating kid as a person, visuals. Obviously there was no mention of SALT/EP/OT and their involvement but it just highlighted the lack of training for teachers, with more and more ND children being identified surely training needs to come on

@DoubleShotEspresso

‘specifically mainstream who are heavily funded‘

Most fucking idiotic comment on this thread. Where the hell do you get the notion that that there is any ‘heavy’ funding to be had?

There is some training for teachers but not much. Each student with AN requires slightly different strategies and training tends to be generic. Even EHCPs can be generic and give strategies that are used anyway. Sometimes recommended ideas for one student can directly contradict the needs of another student in the same classroom.

A lot of the time the teachers know the strategies, but they have 4-5+ students with AN in the same room as 25+others. We aren't superhuman.

My DD is funded 26k in her mainstream (not including the 4k bums on seats ££ and the fact she is also a pupil premium child so that brings funding too). School and I had to fight tooth and nail for that funding, it was brutal.