To ask how you can justify using a woodburner in a city or town

[MojoMoon]

www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/oct/09/eco-wood-stoves-emit-pollution-hgv-ecodesign?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

New wood burning stoves billed as more environmentally friendly still emit 750 times more tiny particle pollution than a modern HGV truck, a report has shown.

Only stoves that meet the ecodesign standard can be legally sold from the start of 2022 in the UK and EU, but experts said the regulation was shockingly weak.

The report used data on the emissions produced by stoves in perfect laboratory conditions and the pollution could be even higher in everyday use, the researchers said, with older stoves being much worse.

Tiny particle pollution – called PM2.5 – is especially harmful to health as it can pass through the lungs into the bloodstream and then be carried around the body and lodge in organs. At least 40 ,000 early deaths a year are attributed to wood burning in Europe.

Wood burners also triple the level of harmful pollution inside homes and should be sold with a health warning, said the scientist behind a study published in December. The researchers advised that the stoves should not be used around elderly people or children.

The government may have banned the burning of wet wood but has no plans to ban the sale of woodburners, despite the fact that the 8pc of homes that use them are almost entirely in cities and can use power or gas for heating. And are almost entirely fairly wealthy households.

(Those of you who live a "very rural" location, to use a common Mumsnet phrase and are entirely off grid may justifiably need one. But the question was cities and towns).

It worries me so few people know how dangerous PM2.5 emissions are, particularly for pregnant women and children.

YANBU: correct, woodburners should be banned in homes in cities and towns asap

YABU: no, they look pretty and who cares about science and health

@julieca Picture my bitter disappointment upon learning that despite 30 years on the tabs, my CO levels remain below those of a non-smoker living in London.

All that money spent and I’ve not even been doing it right!

Some of you lot need to learn that shades of grey ain’t just a mucky book.

As for the faux “power cuts? In the uk? I’ve never heard of such a thing” innocence. Slip some extra virgin olive oil up there and your head will slip straight out.

For balance (not the Daily Mail): www.woodheatassociation.org.uk/is-biomass-heating-causing-urban-air-pollution/

I'd like suggestions for alternative heating methods for people without mains gas supply, or space for an oil tank, living in an old and draughty house. The venerable night store heaters were about as much use as a chocolate teapot by late afternoon. And power outages are not uncommon after winter storms.

Yes, the house needs to be well insulated so you would also need to invest in that too

But I can’t make a cavity wall…..there’s no gap. I can’t demolish my house and build another one. 🤷‍♀️ I have double glazing and plenty of loft insulation but from what i read that isn’t enough. You need a decent cavity wall so if you have solid walls it won’t be effective.

when I was househunting, three things made me reject properties without a second thought:

• if they were listed
• if they were thatched
• if they had woodburners.

I cannot understand why people install the things, other than because they think they have snob value.

Actually that defra study mentioned that break pads are also a considerable problem.

The article is framed that the only thing that kills are PM
But actually it’s much much more complex than that.

They’ll be banning pets next

@Lockheart

People on favour of having woodburners - does it not concern you re your children's or fetus' health?

Given how standard open fires were 30 or 40 odd years ago, I think we can safely say they're not that damaging at a population level. Certainly the 30- and 40-somethings I know are not crippled with asthma etc compared to their younger peers. My brother and I were born and raised in a house with an open fire and neither of us have any health issues or allergies.

Don't be ridiculous, 40 years ago virtually nobody had open fires anymore. Prior to that, things were so bad they brought in the clean air act.

@XingMing
I'd recommend finding a local qualified person for personal advice - anyone has completed the Heatgeek training is worth trying so perhaps look here for someone to survey your home

www.heatgeek.com/find-a-heat-geek/

Firstly the advice is going to be to do as much as you can to address the draughty house. A house can be improved, even old period homes. They may not be perfect but they can be much better. Windows, doors, loft insulation, floor insulation, insulated internal plaster board, external render, cavity wall insulation etc may be options depending on your home.

In terms of heating - ground or air source heat pumps are probably the most environmentally sound source. The right system designed for your specific needs can be used even at very low temperatures (they are common in Scandinavia and it gets cold there). Bad ones poorly designed for your situation will be bad
They will work best if your house can be improved but they can work in less than perfectly insulated homes - they just need to be bigger.
If you have the land, ground source heat pumps are the best option in terms of efficiency. So if you are rural with a sizeable garden, that's what I would be most tempted to do.

If you live somewhere rural that really does have regular, long lasting power cuts after storms, then perhaps a biofuel stove for backup heating/cooking/boiling water would be an idea but would be best restricted only to emergencies.

Perhaps also install a battery and charge it during cheap over night rates to cover lighting etc if power cuts are very common.

The government will soon announce its new subsidy system for air and ground source heat pumps plus likely also a new range of schemes to help finance home insulation improvements because it knows we have to reduce the carbon footprint and local air pollution caused by domestic heating in order to meet our climate change goals AND reduce the immediate damage done by local and indoor air pollution. So please don't assume that nothing is affordable.

(Carbon and particulates are two separate issues, one is global, one is very local)

@tiredandmardy

Our open fire is so cosy now the nights are drawing in…I love it and so does the rest of the family.

As others on MN have told me in my time -“you do you and I’ll do me”

And many of us will also judge you harshly. But you do you.

[quote MojoMoon]For any super suspicious of the guardian and it's "motives", here it the daily mail for balance:

www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-9266655/Wood-burning-stoves-produce-THREE-TIMES-small-particle-air-pollution-road-traffic.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9105473/Asthma-charity-pleads-Britons-NOT-use-wood-burning-stoves.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-6402031/Wood-burning-stoves-emit-six-times-pollution-diesel-truck.html[/quote]
That would be the same Daily Mail who alternate on a weekly basis between studies which say that red wine is going to kill you, and others which say that red wine is good for you.

I'll take that with a pinch of salt too. No matter what my arteries think about it.

We have one . Installed a long time before we moved in . We live in a big enough house that have to shut one end of the central heating down sometimes because the cost of heating the whole house with oil is astronomical. Our village is suitably rural that we only just upgraded to mains sewage three years ago. Gas is never ever going to happen . We use our woodburner every day in winter because it means using less oil . The wood that supplies it comes from our trees , which we cut and season for two years before burning Until someone can come up with something that doesn't cost a fortune to install and is going to keep this house warm through a fen winter , I'm sticking with it .

@Elphame

Totally fed up of the green washing. The biomass electricity plants create a huge amount of C02 but are labelled as "green". They are not as a study of the process will quickly reveal. The Guardian ran an article a few days ago but there are plenty more out there.

In some areas of the country coal is still a primary form of heating - it used to be part of the miners pensions. Free coal for life. The banning of fossil fuels will hit a lot of them hard. Many have no other option for heating other than oil or electricity, both of which are expensive.

Heat pumps? A complete non starter for most of the UKs housing stock

Those who worry about air quality and their children - do you also avoid scented candles, cleaning products, plug in air fresheners etc? Even new fabrics emit unpleasant irritant chemicals. Air qaulity within homes is frequently very poor.

Of course I avoid scented candles and cleaning products and those disgusting plug in air fresheners, I don't think it's that unusual.

@Loveshelly

Actually that defra study mentioned that break pads are also a considerable problem.

The article is framed that the only thing that kills are PM
But actually it’s much much more complex than that.

They’ll be banning pets next

So speed kills, but so does stopping.

@CovidCorvid you can get insulation for solid walls - either external (which is like cladding or rendering) or internal. We are looking at getting the internal type for our freezing cold bathroom. It’s like insulating boards you attach to the wall which we are hoping to then tile over in the case of the bathroom.

Re people mentioning power cuts, I am surprised people in towns & cities consider them a major issue worthy of spending so much to get a wood burner. I’ve never experienced a power cut lasting more than a couple of hours in my entire life.

The last time I read a review of the literature on this topic, cooking on gas was associated with the highest pm 2.5 levels in the home (in this country).
Houses being "clean" and having pets was also flagged.
It's the formaldehyde leaking from your furniture that will get you, anyway.

They cause cancer apparently so that's a no from me especially around children. They supposedly also increase heart attacks and strokes.

I wonder if people who are happy to have them would be so happy their children smoking?

I didnt realise they were this bad until I saw this thread and googled. Thank you op.

The defra study also mentioned cooking
Especially anything fried.

I'm rural, no houses very close and down a two mile dirt track. Our power is fed by miles of overhead cables. The stove gives me peace of mind as if (or when!) the cables are taken down by weather or falling trees we still have heat, light and can cook even if the power is out for a prolonged period.

Gas prices are going through the roof, and I can get free logs from a family member with a landscape design / tree surgery business.

I also now work from home so I need to have some form of heating on the house for a lot more hours than I used to.

No fucking way I'm getting rid of mine.

[quote MojoMoon]@ChargingBuck my question literally says "in towns and cities"

Yes, that is urban centric. It's in the headline![/quote]
Exactly Mojo.

Legislation being passed in Westminster to suit urban demands won't suit rural people who cannot afford on-grid fuel, or who do not have the infrastructure to heat their homes without solid fuel.

Or am i not allowed to point that out, being a rustic peasant?

I would definitely like the option of either a wood burner or an open fire, for reasons stated above.

If there is a power outage I'd like to still be able to keep warm.

The defra study also mentioned cooking
Especially anything fried.

Self cleaning ovens alsofill the house with particulates during the cleaning process.

Because I don’t give a shiny shit about the environment, other people’s health, or the occupants of my own home (the fire will release a huge waft of particulates into the room every time the door is opened which take ages to dissipate); it’s cheap and adds “character”.

As I type this I am in a rural village in a Central European country. The village has no gas the same as all the other villages between here and the major town with an airport. This is a poor area and electricity is expensive. Pretty all houses are heated by wood burners and even though where I am straying has central heating the boiler is fired by a wood burner. Most cooking is done on wood burners and only some have calor gas bottles. The houses are well insulated with foot thick walls and the wood burners keep everything toasty warm. Wood tends to be bought during the summer when it is cheaper but you don’t buy nice uniform size logs but great big tree branches that you then cut yourself.
I don’t know how people say they can smell the few wood burners on the the streets of London when I have just walked through the village where everyone has wood burners and can’t smell anything.

You need a decent cavity wall so if you have solid walls it won’t be effective.

That’s not quite true, it’s that the size of system you need becomes larger and more expensive ( and thus the economics don’t stack up.)

But as others have said, internal or external solid wall insulation is a thing - we are planning it as we get external walls replastered on our 1920s solid wall house (we still have a lot of original horsehair plaster…)

But I’ll be honest, I’m doing with heat pumps what I’m doing with EVs - waits about 5 years for the tech to improve thanks to mass deployment and greater investment, and better surrounding infrastructure, and for the govt to get to the point of thinking ‘fuck me 2035 is pretty close isn’t it’.