To ask how you can justify using a woodburner in a city or town

[MojoMoon]

www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/oct/09/eco-wood-stoves-emit-pollution-hgv-ecodesign?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

New wood burning stoves billed as more environmentally friendly still emit 750 times more tiny particle pollution than a modern HGV truck, a report has shown.

Only stoves that meet the ecodesign standard can be legally sold from the start of 2022 in the UK and EU, but experts said the regulation was shockingly weak.

The report used data on the emissions produced by stoves in perfect laboratory conditions and the pollution could be even higher in everyday use, the researchers said, with older stoves being much worse.

Tiny particle pollution – called PM2.5 – is especially harmful to health as it can pass through the lungs into the bloodstream and then be carried around the body and lodge in organs. At least 40 ,000 early deaths a year are attributed to wood burning in Europe.

Wood burners also triple the level of harmful pollution inside homes and should be sold with a health warning, said the scientist behind a study published in December. The researchers advised that the stoves should not be used around elderly people or children.

The government may have banned the burning of wet wood but has no plans to ban the sale of woodburners, despite the fact that the 8pc of homes that use them are almost entirely in cities and can use power or gas for heating. And are almost entirely fairly wealthy households.

(Those of you who live a "very rural" location, to use a common Mumsnet phrase and are entirely off grid may justifiably need one. But the question was cities and towns).

It worries me so few people know how dangerous PM2.5 emissions are, particularly for pregnant women and children.

YANBU: correct, woodburners should be banned in homes in cities and towns asap

YABU: no, they look pretty and who cares about science and health

I don’t know how people say they can smell the few wood burners on the the streets of London when I have just walked through the village where everyone has wood burners and can’t smell anything

The obvious answer is that you’ve grown used to it.

I used to live in a village (not the UK) that used coal for home heating, the smell was weird but the locals seemed not to notice.

Well I've had one fitted. Compared to the open fire I had they use far less fuel.

With the gas and electricity price rises I think more people will be using them. Not less.

@JassyRadlett

Well what's the use of forcing us to use hydrogen? I don't have a clean cheap reliable source of that either, not any heater that runs off it. It's like how they keep touting 'heat pumps' as if everybody can spend thousands to have a hole ripped into their house to install a device with unknown reliability which is going to pump in the 'heat' from outside - all -5 degrees of it in winter which I'm sure will keep me nice and toasty.

You know it’s not just moving air from the outdoor, right? There’s refrigerant liquid and a compressor involved.

Wait until I tell you about a crazy heat-exchange device called a ‘fridge’. It’ll blow your mind.

There is a big difference from a fridge which cools by dispersing heat, and the claims that heat pumps will miraculously compress the tiny amount of thermal energy from the outside into enough to heat the inside.

I've love to believe the fairy story of a device that can do that, but I looked up heat pumps when the goverment started threatening to ban gas boilers and while they do just fine in mild climates their efficiency drops dramatically once outdoor temperatures go below zero, which is frequently during winter, and how is that supposed to heat a whole home?

Of course what do the rich and powerful care if a few plebs die prematurely of health conditions related to not being able to heat their homes -- if they do that they aren't counting towards the country's emmissions which means more room in the quota for them to heat their pools and jet off to warmer climes.

@SirSamuelVimes

Gas prices are going through the roof, and I can get free logs from a family member with a landscape design / tree surgery business.

I also now work from home so I need to have some form of heating on the house for a lot more hours than I used to.

No fucking way I'm getting rid of mine.

Yep, same here! We have an open fire and a log burner, definitely won't be getting rid of these as would struggle to have a warm house in winter during the day due to dh working from home and sky rocketing gas prices.

Thank you @MojoMoon, for taking the time to advise. I do appreciate it, and understand it was well meant. It's just not practical advice for a 17th century terraced Cornish cottage built of granite. There is no garden, at all. The front door opens into the street (no pavement) and the "yard" at the back is less than a yard across. The walls are 45cm thick. A wood burner is pretty much the only option, for warmth, and for a degree of resilience to bad weather and power outages. DH has an engineering business specifically focused on industrial heat exchanger technology, so he has investigated all the lightbulb moments over the last 30 years. There really isn't one easy solution. Tidal energy and better battery storage is, IMHO, what the UK should be pursuing, but disagree if you can offer better ideas.

@UsedUpUsername

I don’t know how people say they can smell the few wood burners on the the streets of London when I have just walked through the village where everyone has wood burners and can’t smell anything

The obvious answer is that you’ve grown used to it.

I used to live in a village (not the UK) that used coal for home heating, the smell was weird but the locals seemed not to notice.

I don’t know how I have grown used to it when I only arrived 5 hours ago

Not had chance to read the whole thread. Can someone tell me if our wood burner is dangerous for our 3 year old please?

I think it's incredibly selfish for people to have these. In a city or town it's particularly pretentious. My dad lives next door to one, he has chronic lung problems and the neighbours fill his garden with the smokey smell.

@Barkinginthedistance

Yes. It is dangerous for your three year old. Read the following.

www.mumsforlungs.org/our-campaigns/wood-burning

www.which.co.uk/news/2021/01/study-says-wood-burning-stoves-should-be-accompanied-by-a-clear-health-warning/

Take your pick from the spread of newspapers below, follow

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9105473/Asthma-charity-pleads-Britons-NOT-use-wood-burning-stoves.html

www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/01/avoid-using-wood-burning-stoves-if-possible-warn-health-experts?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

@XingMing. www.daikin.co.uk/en_gb/about/case-studies/classiccottagecornwall.html

I don't doubt it might be more complex but I would rule it out completely. Take a look at this case study for a Cornish terrace cottage - says the best survey and design was done by Abode Heat in Bodmin. You never know, it might be worth a call to discuss.

Wouldn't rule it out obvs

@C8H10N4O2

YANBU: correct, woodburners should be banned in homes in cities and towns asap

YABU: no, they look pretty and who cares about science and health

I know AIBU is often bonkers but this takes the biscuit for one of the silliest false "choices" in a long time.

Yeah, made me chuckle too.

I'll be getting one in our new extension when it's built.

Given the cost of fuels & the government's determination to remove the more affordable methods of heating my home, plus the reliance on other countries I'd be stupid not to leave myself the option to have at least one warm room in the house.....

We've just had our gas fire taken out. I have to admit I was tempted to replace it with a woodburner; they look lovely & would be a nice treat on a winter night. We have reliable gas central heating in a warm house though, so it wasn't a necessity, and a bit of research told me it wouldn't be good for my asthma, or that of my DC. We went for a decent electric fire instead, looks great, much better tech than they used to be, and clean.

Having said that though - we can afford the gas for the heating, and could afford to pay for a modern electric fire. Different if you can't or gas isn't available.

Tbh I think anyone installing a new wood burner in an urban area now is not making a sensible financial choice. It really won't be long before they're banned, and then the money sunk into them will be wasted. A bit like buying a new diesel car just before they bring in a ULEZ.

I live in a village, semi-rurally. But I don’t have central heating in my house so my fires are the only way I can heat my house.

I live in a rural village. Log burners are common and whilst there is a faint smell in the air in winter it ia not significant. Our .wood comes from sustainable sources. We have no access to gas and oil is expensive if it is burned all day.

@Energy4You smokeless coal is significantly better for the environment than wood or normal coal. They have a different composition so are less polluting

YANBU
Was very tempted with the recent fuel hikes, being 'wood' thought it would be more eco etc - looked into it and was absolutely staggered at the environmental pollution of wood-burning stoves. So (sadly) we are not getting one.

We had a large open fire installed in 2004 into a chimney we had built (before wood burners in suburban 1970s houses were a thing) - hell would freeze before I’d stop using it,

The ‘stick an extra jumper on’ brigade don’t appreciate the damage done to unheated houses and bodies. One of my best mates lived in an unheated cob house and used an oil radiator as their only heat source. The mould in the house was unbelievable and they eventually got pneumonia (unsurprisingly.)

The landlord had to have his arm twisted to install ANY form of heating and the only thing he would agree to was a wood burner which my mate had to pay to have installed.

I have a burner in my lounge and open fire in my bedroom but no chimneys. I burn bio ethanol. No pollution and they’re cosy and beautiful. Just if anyone in a town wants a solution to the pollution issue? I have no central heating, these fires have provided plenty of affordable heat the 10 years I’ve been here. This is my view from my bed.

[quote MojoMoon]@Lockheart
Actually wood burning stoves in London accounts for between 23 and 31pc of PM2.5 emissions. And given wood burning is entirely unnecessary in London, I would argue that it was worse than vehicles since a fair chunk of road traffic is vital.

www.london.gov.uk/what-we-do/environment/pollution-and-air-quality/guidance-wood-burning-stoves-london[/quote]
From the report you linked:
Some PM2.5 is naturally occurring, such as dust and sea salt, and some is man-made, such as particulates from vehicle exhausts. Around a third of the PM2.5 emitted in London comes from road transport, with a large proportion also coming from construction, wood burning and commercial cooking. However, around half of PM2.5 measured in London’s air comes from transboundary sources outside of London

So its not those pesky wood burner owning Londoners that are causing particulates, its coming in from outside the boundary!

YANBU. They're lovely-looking,but I would never have one for the reasons in the OP. I believe you can get gas fires in the style of log burners, which I might do when our gas fire needs replacing. We used to have an open fire about 15 years ago, before I was aware how bad it is for health.

@mojomoon, our company was in the early years, Daikin's main supplier and fitter in the area. But the kit is built to be replaced every FIVE years. How many people can afford to rip out and replace their main heating system every five or six years?

I really don't want to argue the eco details, because I agree with the main message, but the companies touting their products are offering a heavy green wash marketing message, and are falling a long way short of delivering.

I'm loving the idea that people have absolutely no idea of the vagaries of the mains electricity supply in rural England and pissing myself that someone at the council could override a ban on log burners during a power cut. There's literally no one at our local council to speak to full stop about anything, let alone someone dedicated for 4pm on a Friday when the supply's down, or when it's a sudden take out to provide power elsewhere while emergency works take place. I highly doubt I could get through to anyone at the council who's even heard of where we live, let alone give two hoots as to how we exist and keep body and soul together.