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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask how you can justify using a woodburner in a city or town

584 replies

MojoMoon · 09/10/2021 09:39

www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/oct/09/eco-wood-stoves-emit-pollution-hgv-ecodesign?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

New wood burning stoves billed as more environmentally friendly still emit 750 times more tiny particle pollution than a modern HGV truck, a report has shown.

Only stoves that meet the ecodesign standard can be legally sold from the start of 2022 in the UK and EU, but experts said the regulation was shockingly weak.

The report used data on the emissions produced by stoves in perfect laboratory conditions and the pollution could be even higher in everyday use, the researchers said, with older stoves being much worse.

Tiny particle pollution – called PM2.5 – is especially harmful to health as it can pass through the lungs into the bloodstream and then be carried around the body and lodge in organs. At least 40 ,000 early deaths a year are attributed to wood burning in Europe.

Wood burners also triple the level of harmful pollution inside homes and should be sold with a health warning, said the scientist behind a study published in December. The researchers advised that the stoves should not be used around elderly people or children.

The government may have banned the burning of wet wood but has no plans to ban the sale of woodburners, despite the fact that the 8pc of homes that use them are almost entirely in cities and can use power or gas for heating. And are almost entirely fairly wealthy households.

(Those of you who live a "very rural" location, to use a common Mumsnet phrase and are entirely off grid may justifiably need one. But the question was cities and towns).

It worries me so few people know how dangerous PM2.5 emissions are, particularly for pregnant women and children.

YANBU: correct, woodburners should be banned in homes in cities and towns asap

YABU: no, they look pretty and who cares about science and health

OP posts:
MojoMoon · 09/10/2021 15:11

@CovidCorvid

I have one. I am rural ish but we have gas so yes don’t need it. I didn’t know about the pollution (nobody talked about it ten years ago) when we fitted it. I mean obviously I knew that burning wood would cause some particles, etc but nobody spoke about it like they do now back then. Not sure I’d have had it fitted if I knew.

Saying that I will still use it….cost me 5k so I’m not having it as decoration. We’ve had two extended periods of time when I’ve been so glad we’ve had it. Once our boiler broke and it was a week to fix, in winter so no central heating…was a life saver. Another time the gas pipe to our village broke and nobody had any gas for two weeks. Again was very glad we had it.

Also with rising fuel bills I prefer to put the fire on….working my way through the pile of logs knowing how much I have left. Rather than putting the heating on and worrying how much it’s going to cost.

Plus how clean is the gas/electricity we get? There’s an environmental cost to everything. 🤷‍♀️

Re cleanliness of power - power doesn't release particulates in your home

We aren't really talking about carbon emissions here

It's about particulates eg local air pollution. Not climate change (although obvs burning releases carbon too) it is the invisible killer in your home. In your street. It is why hospital admissions go up on high particulate days - asthma and heart attacks.
It has been linked with higher rates of miscarriage and dementia for YOU in YOUR HOME.

www.thelancet.com/journals/lanplh/article/PIIS2542-5196(20)30268-0/fulltext

www.alzheimers.org.uk/about-dementia/risk-factors-and-prevention/air-pollution-and-dementia

OP posts:
cantkeepawayforever · 09/10/2021 15:18

I am often alone at home.

In the winter, I heat a single room using a couple of seasoned logs in a woodburner, instead of running the (gas) central heating to heat the whole house unnecessarily.

I suspect the carbon balance is probably in the woodburner's favour, especially because almost all of what we burn comes from our own garden trees.

I have never smelt our woodburner's smoke outside at all - possibly because we live in an open area close to the rural edges of a town and the chimney is very high.

julieca · 09/10/2021 15:20

@cantkeepawayforever its is not about carbon, woodburners damage your health.

cantkeepawayforever · 09/10/2021 15:20

As for releasing particulates into the house - it is well installed, we run it closed, and the house is well ventilated (aka draughty).

cantkeepawayforever · 09/10/2021 15:21

[quote julieca]@cantkeepawayforever its is not about carbon, woodburners damage your health.[/quote]
So does excessive cold.

julieca · 09/10/2021 15:22

I have sympathy for people with no other heating or who realistically cant afford electric heaters. If you have no choice you have to do what you can to keep your family warm.
But I don't understand those for whom it is a lifestyle choice, and especially who have children. Woodburners are lovely and give a cosy glow. But they are also a danger to health.
If you wouldn't be happy for adults to sit in a room smoking with your children playing, then why ignore the risks of woodburners?

QuizzlyBear · 09/10/2021 15:25

I must admit that I didn't know the health risks were so high. Is that the same for biofuel fireplaces?

cantkeepawayforever · 09/10/2021 15:25

@julieca

I have sympathy for people with no other heating or who realistically cant afford electric heaters. If you have no choice you have to do what you can to keep your family warm. But I don't understand those for whom it is a lifestyle choice, and especially who have children. Woodburners are lovely and give a cosy glow. But they are also a danger to health. If you wouldn't be happy for adults to sit in a room smoking with your children playing, then why ignore the risks of woodburners?
I don't think that is a fair comparison.

I lived with my (smoker) father smoking a pipe in the house for almost all of my childhood - he did give up, but only after all 3 of his children had repeated bronchitis and asthma.

I know how blue the air was, how filthy the fabrics and walls.

The amount of particulates from a wood burner is nowhere close to the same.

MojoMoon · 09/10/2021 15:27

I'm very sympathetic to those who felt they were missold. I think it would be interesting for someone to make a legal claim that the risks were not explained to them by the seller.

But avoid the sunk costs fallacy - you've spent something so you might as well continue even though the outcome is bad.

Just stop using it if you can. Your health, children and neighbours will be better off

Not if you are super rural yada yada yada. My question said IN TOWNS AND CITIES.

OP posts:
cantkeepawayforever · 09/10/2021 15:28

It's also worth saying that I never refuel - I light the fire when I come in, it burns itself out and I clean it out the following day. So it is essentially run as a closed fire throughout.

julieca · 09/10/2021 15:28

@cantkeepawayforever its worse

JudgeJ · 09/10/2021 15:29

@TheyWentToSeaInASieve

I'd look at the authors of the report and the amount of wood they burnt to get their results. They are assessing 140kg of wood used as the main source of heating (so assume this is for the entire cold season).

They've massaged the data according to their message. Fake news, anyone?

When I see anything like this piece in the Gruniard of the type 'I have an agenda and I'll massage the figures to prove it' I am always reminded of Darryl Huff's How To Lie WIth Statistics. Tell me what you want to 'prove' and I'll find the figures to 'prove it'.
elfycat · 09/10/2021 15:33

We had a woodburner fitted when we had an extension some years ago, when they were considered an OK option for heating because you're not adding to greenhouse gases by burning renewable wood supplies.

We deliberately got a DEFRA approved model that is still currently allowed by the regulations. We burn wood that has been seasoned for 2-3 years, and then dried in a covered shelter for the whole summer before the burn year (DH bought a whole felled tree on ebay 3 years ago - shifting it was fun). The pieces are so incredibly light I guarantee there's nothing green-wood about them.

It's not on often. The room has underfloor heating and great insulation but it can take a while to respond to a change in temperature as it needs to get through inches of screed but stays stable once up to temp If the evening is cold we light the burner and burn a few pieces of wood (the burner has stone sides/top which also act like storage heaters so once warm we let the fire go out). But if it's bitter and we've got on jumpers and a blanket over our legs and we're still cold then I will light it and I'm not apologising for it.

That's how I justify it. Thanks for asking.

TDogsInHats · 09/10/2021 15:35

@DGRossetti

New wood burning stoves billed as more environmentally friendly still emit 750 times more tiny particle pollution than a modern HGV truck, a report has shown.

Well, yes. But since the shortage of HGVs, it must be OK, surely ?

(I may not be taking this as seriously as some).

Grin oh dear. I think we'll be in for some stern words. You for not taking it seriously enough. And me for showing grinning face at your comment.Confused
MojoMoon · 09/10/2021 15:36

On biofuels: there is less research. It definitely is better for particulates than wood but there are some concerns raised over other air pollutants and it also assumes using a high quality fuel

Ethanol fireplaces: The underestimated risk
www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/09/140903091728.htm

There has been a bit more done on biofuels in car engines and the impact on air quality

Biodiesel fuel use is estimated to reduce
several precursors to PM (e.g., PM, SO2, and VOC) and increase others (NOx). Thus, the net
affect of biodiesel fuel use on ambient PM levels is unclear based on analyzing changes in
emissions alone, so it as assessed using air quality modeling.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3622266/

OP posts:
FatBettyintheCoop · 09/10/2021 15:43

I love lighting our wood burner in winter.

We get free wood from a farmer friend in exchange for other services and we’re burning wood that’s been allowed to dry out for at least 3 years. We live about 6 miles from the nearest town and we’re on the coast.

DH has emphysema but he’s not noticeably affected by the stove during the winter months, so I’m not planning to get rid of it anytime soon.

DdraigGoch · 09/10/2021 16:07

@Loveshelly

608 children died in car accidents and 91,000 were injured. Should we ban cars. Won’t someone think of the children!
I wish someone would do something about cars. Awful things, they kill many both directly and indirectly. Also very antisocial, with everyone tucked into their air-conditioned little box.
SciFiScream · 09/10/2021 16:17

@HermioneAndRoger

I have wanted a woodburner for years but we live in suburbs and it wouldn't be justifiable. Since various MN threads on the topic I now covet a mini Everhot for my sitting room on the day when we take out the awful gas fire.
No I covet a mini everhot! I'd also love a bioethanol indoor fire thingy. Anyone know about the particulate production of that?

I've never lived with an indoor fire of any sort. I'd love a wood burner but have decided against it.

Do you think that if (by some magic) all the other pollution went away wood burners abs such like would be useable, perhaps in some sort of rationed form?

MasterGland · 09/10/2021 16:25

I am becoming very suspicious about the motives of whoever at the Guardian is pushing this narrative about Woodburners. The piece they ran in December was deliberately misleading. I think someone has an axe to grind (or investments in gas).
Particulates are produced from any form of combustion. The greatest concentration in the home are usually found in kitchens. Particularly around toasters and when frying on the hob.
Cars also produce particulates, not just carbon dioxide. As do gas boilers etc.
Every time you press the break on you car, small particles of break pad dust are generated. Particulates are everywhere.
I wonder why the Guardian are so obsessed with Woodburners Hmm

BungleandGeorge · 09/10/2021 16:28

[quote ejhhhhh]@BungleandGeorge electricity is vastly less polluting than burning wood because we're talking about particulate pollution not CO2 emissions. And burning wood still produces CO2 emissions. Generating electricity produces very little particulate pollution because we no longer have a working power station burning coal, and even if we did, they're not in urban areas where it's that much of an issue (although I'm sure if you lived next door to one it would be a concern). Most electricity comes from burning gas, which does not produce particulate pollution.[/quote]
The comment was in reply to OP saying electricity should be taxed less than ‘consumption of damaging fuels like gas, oil, wood.’ Just pointing out that the majority of our electricity comes from burning those, especially gas. I’m not sure why you’d tax someone more for using gas directly for their heating than someone using electricity which has been made from burning it (and high is a less efficient process)?

OP posts:
MapleMay11 · 09/10/2021 16:31

@CovidCorvid

Good quality heat pumps work perfectly. I've lived in two houses with them, including the one I'm currently in. They're not cheap to purchase but 'unknown unreliability' is ridiculous.

I might be wrong but I read they only work perfectly if you live in a well insulated house? So possibly not in my 150yo house with no cavity wall?

Yes, the house needs to be well insulated so you would also need to invest in that too.
Yerroblemom1923 · 09/10/2021 16:35

Gas and leccy prices going up, surely I'm allowed to heat my home with wood?! We are rural and the houses are v old so have existing fire places etc and fake fires look tacky as hell

MojoMoon · 09/10/2021 16:37

@BungleandGeorge

Because while gas is still the single largest source, the rising share of Renewables (and nuclear if Hinkley ever gets finished) means that the average carbon intensity of using electricity to heat your home or cook on is less than using gas. And the amount of new offshore wind farms that are being built will only reduce this carbon intensity further.
So that is carbon for global warming and we should transfer more tax burden on to it away from relatively clean electricity

If we switch to looking at particulates for local air pollution, gas is still damaging (less than burning wood and coal though)

Research suggests gas cooking produces about twice as much PM2.5 as electric

www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2020/5/7/21247602/gas-stove-cooking-indoor-air-pollution-health-risks

So again, this creates negative health outcomes and we should transfer tax burden away from elec and towards gas.

Gradually, starting now and over the next ten years incrementally

OP posts:
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