Friends, salaries, careers choices and being a Brit - COVID edition

[Covitvaxed]

Had a conversation with a close and long-term friend. We both have post-graduate qualifications and started careers at highly sought (then/now) graduate schemes nearly 20 years ago.

She (Brit) had children and later quit. Now works for an NGO in a clerical and part-time post.
I (non Brit, came to UK for a Masters) had children later and still work full-time and now at an executive level for a UK company based overseas.

I was on track for a promotion - now moratorium on recruitment (internal/external) and no increase for certain levels last year and this year.
A few days ago, we had a Zoom call plus wine and I moaned about this and she snapped and said she is on a minimum wage, and I should "feel privileged to earn more than 20 times the minimum wage", it came as a surprise and quickly ended the call. We are quite open about our lives to one another.

On thinking about this, IABU:

1. Privilege is ability to choose to quit
2. Many women manage child care and full-time jobs and do not expect awards unlike the friend and her types
3. On observation, faux poverty/hardships olympics are a particular British badge of pride for the privileged/political activists class

YANBU at and I wholeheartedly agree regarding point #3. Your friend also settled and is angry at herself not (just) you.

I agree with you. I have just made a similar-ish career move to your friend (not quite to minimum wage but a significant drop for a more public sector type role) and I am in no question whatsoever that it's a privilege that I have for a couple of reasons (family inheritance, DH is a high earner). Your position sounds extremely frustrating too.

Agreed.

I had a similar(ish) situation. I have kids with lifelong additional needs. None will ever be able to live independently, have a career. I was talking about lack of suitable education with one of their respite workers. She said "yes it's just as bad when you have a kid with no additional needs and you can't get into the school you want them to'. No love, it ain't the same. Please don't say that a child with no disabilities is the same as one that does. In other words op, read the room. You may all be friends, but you are in vastly different circumstances

It's a difficult one and I can see both sides. I do think it's tactless to moan about money to someone on minimum wage if you're well off.

I don't think you should feel privileged necessarily but some people can't seem to recognise that people on minimum wage still work hard and those jobs need doing by somebody. Living costs are just getting ridiculous.

Privilege isn't always ability to choose to quit. Many women quit because childcare costs are more than they earn. That's not privilege.

You lost me at "friend and her types" in your item 2 which sounds dismissive and bitchy.

I am more like you, foreign and came to the UK for study.
I don't think your friend expects a badge, more that the realities for professional working mothers in the UK are way below many other countries. Just look at the cost of childcare. Your friend could have been speaking from a position of necessity, not privilege.
I mean, a full time unsubsidised nursery place for under-3 is close to £2k/month now where I am.

Err no. There's no privilege in bring unable to find decent childcare that your wages actually cover, this is the reality for many women in the UK. And banging on about your big job and income - just no.

Yes, yes and yes. No one made her have children and no one made her quit. They are all her own choices

Maybe you could give her my friends number. She thought people with children should do part time hours but get full time money, as they were a lot busier than people with no children and that’s “not fair”. I thought she was joking, she wasn’t

You sound angry and it's maybe coming off bitchier than you are.

You are BOTH privileged. She is privileged as she could step off the corporate ladder and choose a job with low pay that (I assume as it's an NGO) is a passion, and probably allows a bit more flexibility re childcare.

You are privileged as your choice to have children later in life worked out (it doesn't for many people) and you can afford (I assume) bomb-proof childcare that allows you to do your Executive job without having a nervous breakdown.

You both sound like you are insensitive to each others choices, and lack respect for them. Calm down and then get in touch with her to make it OK, and move on.

I am in your position and have kids. Wasn't a sahp.

Its not hard to see how someone may choose to be a sahp, but in actu fact at the time they didn't feel like there was another choice. Often people feel like they are choosing between 2 less than ideal options.

Or how, assuming it was a genuine choice, may feel trapped by a choice they made years before.

With the way you speak about her I think both of you have hit a raw nerve with eachother and both smarting from it.

I think poverty Olympics appears on MN. Living in Britian, I can't say I notice it in RL. I would say lots of people like to project they have more money than they do. Never hear anyone talking about how poor they are.

I'm not sure what this has got to do with being British?

Yes, it is a choice to quit and a privilege to be able to do so. But maybe she hadn't realised how low her income would fall later and/or was regretting it. Maybe she is struggling financially. Maybe she was having a really crap day. I think you have to show a bit more understanding.

I think my judgement of her depends somewhat on whether she has a partner, whether they earn well, how much support she gets from them etc etc.

@wizzywig read the room how?

Your comparison is off, no parent chooses children with special needs or not.

The friend and I were in similar circumstances, she made her choice.

Sounds like you're completely unaware of how hard it is to bring up kids on a minimum wage job. Are you really on 20 x that amount?

I'm amazed you're still friends.

I have 'friends' like you. Looking down their nose at women who 'choose' (or maybe don't have the choice) to step down off the rat race. She's just as intelligent and able as you presumably but you're that unaware you make a moany comment about money. Pretty crass to be fair.

I might add, the genuinely rich people I know NEVER moan about money or indeed ever mention it. What they do do however, is treat me from time to time to a nice meal or some nice flowers - things I don't normally do.

You sound like a bit of an idiot. I feel for your friend!

@LuluLefevre You sound angry and it's maybe coming off bitchier than you are.

I am not and English 2nd language

[quote Covitvaxed]**@LuluLefevre* You sound angry and it's maybe coming off bitchier* than you are.

I am not and English 2nd language[/quote]
So when you said 'her types' you actually meant 'sahm and women who work part time to care for their kids'

They all want badges?

Many women manage child care and full-time jobs and do not expect awards unlike the friend and her types

That sounds pretty darn bitchy. Your command of English is excellent, I think you need to own how bitter you sound.

I see your point... but you don't seem to appreciate how hard it can be to be a working mother in the uk? Do you have any kids?

Yes.. lots of women work and raise kids... (I'm one of them!) but its bloody hard and bloody expensive! Childcare is pricey and doesn't always cover the hours you need- particularly in stressful roles or long commutes. Often women might "choose" to step down but it's not a happy or easy choice. When someone has spent many years educating themselves and obtaining the role they want, they don't often just give that all up because they'd rather be at home watching daytime TV. As such, she may well hold some resentment to you and your high paid role.

This is an odd thread OP.

What affirmation are you looking for here?

“Well done that woman for earning 20 times the minimum wage and not at all like her friend who, funnily enough, has lived a different life.”

Maybe your friend feels like you overdo it a bit?

You say she’s moaning but, to be honest, you sound like you have an axe to grind yourself. This is how your OP comes across anyway.

Can you explain what you mean by “friend and her types?”

@Covitvaxed

Had a conversation with a close and long-term friend. We both have post-graduate qualifications and started careers at highly sought (then/now) graduate schemes nearly 20 years ago.

She (Brit) had children and later quit. Now works for an NGO in a clerical and part-time post.
I (non Brit, came to UK for a Masters) had children later and still work full-time and now at an executive level for a UK company based overseas.

I was on track for a promotion - now moratorium on recruitment (internal/external) and no increase for certain levels last year and this year.
A few days ago, we had a Zoom call plus wine and I moaned about this and she snapped and said she is on a minimum wage, and I should "feel privileged to earn more than 20 times the minimum wage", it came as a surprise and quickly ended the call. We are quite open about our lives to one another.

On thinking about this, IABU:

1. Privilege is ability to choose to quit
2. Many women manage child care and full-time jobs and do not expect awards unlike the friend and her types
3. On observation, faux poverty/hardships olympics are a particular British badge of pride for the privileged/political activists class

YANBU but most British people won’t agree with you. I’m not sure what country you come from but in mine (developing country) everybody works. There’s no expectation of having an easy life or that the state should take care of you. People spend a lot and education and value the options it gives them.

In Britain a lot of people choose to step back because they want an easy life. Then moan about having no money and expect the state to take care of them. Barring disabled children they could have worked and juggled everything for those few years but chose the easy way out. And then moan when they pay the price.

Again I’m fully expecting to get flamed but this is also what many of my international friends observed

Why are you making this about being British? That's extremely rude (I say this as a non-British person as well)

It is not a choice for many women to scale back work when they have children, if their wage does not cover childcare what can they do.

And yes it is in very poor taste to moan about not getting a raise in your very well paid job to a friend who is skint

YABU

I do think this is in context OP, i think most friends would give a sympathetic ear to another friend if, say, they’d been promised a promotion which was then taken away or they had worked really hard only to be passed over for someone less experienced or made redundant. It’s an understandable disappointment. If you’ve been talking about your high flying job then moaned about not getting a pay rise on top of your good salary for two years then I might also be a bit . It is a case of reading the room slightly, did you listen supportively to her news, had she indicated frustration in her situation or money worries?

Not every career decision is made with maximum progression and salary as the over-riding goal, people have different priorities and obstacles to overcome. Perhaps she finds her work worthwhile but feels frustrated that her hard work leaves them with little extra at the end of the month, maybe she meets people in her line of work with serious difficulties and has a different perspective to you? I also don’t know what her nationality has to do with it.

I think people referring to others as “privileged” is not always helpful, but equally the attitude of the materially successful that they deserve what they have because they work harder than everyone else is not helpful either. The world would be a poorer place if every university graduate wanted to be an investment banker.

If you value this friendship, I would apologise if i was insensitive and ask whether everything is ok with her. You’re far more likely to get to the bottom of it and repair your friendship than asking MN

BTW @Covitvaxed I actually meant regarding point #3 that poverty and hardship Olympics is a particularly British trait in general, not just of privileged people in the UK. It’s tiresome AF.

Also what “award” are your friend “and her types” expecting exactly? What does this even mean?

@Nightbringer
1.The type who can afford cost of child care and some pains it brings for about 5 years or so.
2.The type whose children are now at schools but refuse professional jobs (they're qualified in) for minimum wage simply to minimise personal stress.

1. They type whose choice is the ultruistic and deem others privileged without considering working full-time and parenting is hard and is not always rewarding.
2. Actually the friend appears quite proud of minimum wage, it's always her go-to response