Friends, salaries, careers choices and being a Brit - COVID edition

[Covitvaxed]

Had a conversation with a close and long-term friend. We both have post-graduate qualifications and started careers at highly sought (then/now) graduate schemes nearly 20 years ago.

She (Brit) had children and later quit. Now works for an NGO in a clerical and part-time post.
I (non Brit, came to UK for a Masters) had children later and still work full-time and now at an executive level for a UK company based overseas.

I was on track for a promotion - now moratorium on recruitment (internal/external) and no increase for certain levels last year and this year.
A few days ago, we had a Zoom call plus wine and I moaned about this and she snapped and said she is on a minimum wage, and I should "feel privileged to earn more than 20 times the minimum wage", it came as a surprise and quickly ended the call. We are quite open about our lives to one another.

On thinking about this, IABU:

1. Privilege is ability to choose to quit
2. Many women manage child care and full-time jobs and do not expect awards unlike the friend and her types
3. On observation, faux poverty/hardships olympics are a particular British badge of pride for the privileged/political activists class

@minipie

The way I read the OP is:

You were complaining about not having got a promotion/raise

Friend says you are privileged to earn so much as she earns MW

In that case

A) you were bloody insensitive to be moaning about pay to a friend who earns MW

B) yes she needs to recognise that her pay level is partly due to her choices

C) you need to recognise that people’s pay level is not all about their choices. Perhaps she has more difficult DC than you, or couldn’t afford childcare to keep up her previous job level, or didn’t have as supportive or flexible a partner.

Overall, I’m with your friend.

Then you are part of the problem, not the solution to women knowing their worth. Both friends had similar qualifications, one chose to not make anything of it, while the other didn’t. That not privilege, it’s a choice.

Failure to own mistakes and blame others or "circumstances" for them s a human trait but whining about it as well seems to be a trait held exclusively by a certain type of woman (perhaps I am feeling harsh today )
Example. A friend of mine who chose to work in low paid charity work despite having excellent qualifications and skills that could've earned her three times the amount. That's fine but now 20 years later she is so bitter about not being able to buy a home. Husband also chose to channel his skills into low paid 'Feel Good / Look Good' work. I have limited sympathy tbh. Choices, they matter.

feel privileged to earn more than 20 times the minimum wage

Had to work that into the post of course!

You sound awful. I say that as someone whose "career choice" is much more like yours than the poor person you call a friend.

So the take-away from this thread is that all women with degrees / post-grad qualifications should above all else, aim to be city bankers or jobs of similar remuneration. Never mind if this doesn’t suit your personality. If not, there is something wrong with you. ‘’That type of woman’ is never allowed to complain about anything ever again. The end.

@5catsonthedesk

So the take-away from this thread is that all women with degrees / post-grad qualifications should above all else, aim to be city bankers or jobs of similar remuneration. Never mind if this doesn’t suit your personality. If not, there is something wrong with you. ‘’That type of woman’ is never allowed to complain about anything ever again. The end.

You do realise that there are lots of things in between city banking and minimum wage?

@5catsonthedesk

So the take-away from this thread is that all women with degrees / post-grad qualifications should above all else, aim to be city bankers or jobs of similar remuneration. Never mind if this doesn’t suit your personality. If not, there is something wrong with you. ‘’That type of woman’ is never allowed to complain about anything ever again. The end.

I agree. There is a growing, vocal set on MN these days who have this attitude that if your job is not well paid it was your fault for choosing it.

‘You do realise that there are lots of things in between city banking and minimum wage?’

Yes. Are those people ever allowed to complain though? Or should they have just made ‘different choices?’

@AudHvamm

I think you’ve misunderstood the purpose of my post, which was to give context to why families working in the uk, whether British or not, & particularly those from the backgrounds the op is talking about, might choose to reduce their working hours.

@leakymcleakleak makes some interesting points about why the (mostly women) might later feel that ‘choice’ was not made from a position of privilege.

I concede there’s an amount of cultural pressure - however I’m not convinced that it was the main factor and not being the default, easy option. In any case not something worth lashing out over. Maybe friend was having a bad day, really regretting choices or whatever. But this remark will really leave a sour taste in the mouth.. the OP can’t easily forget it. Because when you lash out you say what you really think.

And in this case, from what the OP describes, her low paid friend didn’t start off complaining about her lot in life or blame anything on others, but felt her friend had little to complain about in the scheme of things. Like complaining about her champagne being warm.

I must admit I have had similar thoughts about my very much “pull yourselves up by your bootstraps” parents. Like during lockdown when they were stressing about whether to rebook their cruise next year and couldn’t see what all the fuss was about furlough and free school dinners.

OP describes this friend as a political activist who works for an NGO - maybe she does just have a different perspective on hardship. It doesn’t necessarily mean she’s wasted her education or is jealous of you.

[quote Covitvaxed]@Nightbringer
1.The type who can afford cost of child care and some pains it brings for about 5 years or so.
2.The type whose children are now at schools but refuse professional jobs (they're qualified in) for minimum wage simply to minimise personal stress.

1. They type whose choice is the ultruistic and deem others privileged without considering working full-time and parenting is hard and is not always rewarding.
2. Actually the friend appears quite proud of minimum wage, it's always her go-to response[/quote]

You know all women that applies to and know they all want a badge?

They are all like your friends? Sounds like you don't like women, sahm or part time working parents really anyone that's not you and doesn't think you are amazing.

sst1234 On the contrary, the problem is people who think that “not making anything of one’s qualifications” is always a free choice.

Have some imagination. Consider all the reasons why a mother might give up a well paid career path. How many of them are genuinely free choice?

I accept, of course, that this person is a lot more privileged than a mother who was never able to get the qualification in the first place.

I think you overestimate the amount of choice OP. For many educated women in this country there is a lot of pressure to step back because someone has to do the shitwork in the family and the husband is better paid/ more secure/ doesn't think of stepping back/ won't pull his weight at home. And lots of those women even in decent mid-level jobs aren't earning enough to afford (because it's considered to be something that comes out of the woman's salary) the kind of bulletproof childcare that will allow her to focus on the ladder. It's just too fucking exhausting doing it all and so they convince themselves that they'll be happier with something less full-on... but they aren't, and they didn't really choose to, and so they're very angry underneath it all by the time ten years have passed.

@Itsnotover @Chipsinthewoods
High or low earners, should be able to moan. Why are the choices/circumstances of privileged low earners better explained/understood than sacrifices of high earners.

@TractorAndHeadphones and others, spot on.

I am struggling to articulate myself, so will bow out.

High or low earners, should be able to moan. Why are the choices/circumstances of privileged low earners better explained/understood than sacrifices of high earners.

I don't think they are! And that is the problem isnt it. Low earners get judged. Nobody chooses to be poor.

The question is, do you want to be friends or do you want to be right?

Interesting thread which I can partly relate to. I am also an immigrant who came to the UK 20 years ago for postgraduate studies. Have been working full time ever since (including shortly after having children), nowhere near the OP's salary level but relatively comfortable now. When my kids started primary school I was surprised at the number of professionally qualified women who chose to be sahm.

In my birth country (poorer EU country) professional women don't quit work after having kids because they know full well they will never be able to find another job (not even a low paid one). Also “safety net” there usually means families rather than the state.

I felt the primary school system in the UK is “rigged” against mothers working full time (only 2 in my kids class, myself and another immigrant) since mothers (of course, never fathers!) were often expected to be on hand for all sorts of activities during school hours. And when my child protested for the nth time “you are never coming anyway” I started to begrudge sahms. Now that the primary school years are coming to an end I know I am privileged because I can afford private school fees whereas the sahms can't and need to rely on the state provision (not great around here).

Whilst I think the OP should have been more sensitive when talking to her friend, I think the post was about the general cultural pressure for women to quit work in the UK (a few other immigrants echoed this). Lots of this is cultural rather than “personal choice” as we don't live in a vacuum (I'm clearly talking about people who have a choice).

Medium / high earners do moan though. Why sound they be different to anyone else? You yourself were moaning about the lack of promotion, OP. This is a very odd thread.

Also, why is this thread the COVID edition? Have there been previous editions?

@5catsonthedesk

The conversation between us was about the impact of covid on pay/jobs/life

@Covitvaxed whatever the opinion of people on this thread now - it's you and your friend who will have to make up. You're understandably hurt that someone close to you lashed out - someone you thought you could be open with and was on 'your side' but now realise might somewhat envy you. She on the other hand may be going through a period of regret, or simply had a bad/difficult day.
20 years is a long time to be friends so I hope you both of you can acknowledge it, be honest with each other and make up. Good luck, and have a good day :)

It was astonishingly tone deaf of you to complain to her about this.

I am highly paid compared to a lot of my friends and can't imagine moaning to them if I don't get a payrise.

And yes, maybe she made a bad decision, maybe she regrets it.

I can see why you’re annoyed with your friend it’s a choice she’s made. She didn’t have to have kids and she didn’t have to work part time. FWIW I actually think childcare should be free, or very low cost and easy to access, like signing up for a school place, with the expectation that women return to work

You've got to keep your audience in mind.
I have a really good friend who I would never complain about money issues too as I know she has far less than me and I would sound like a knob. Same way I try not to complain about my kids to my friends who wanted children but could not.

I think it's fair to say "I wanted to progress with a promotion/better responsibilities" but not really mentioned the money side.

Isn't it just common sense not to complain about money to people you know are worse off than you? No matter the reason that they have less money

Just the same as how it would be in bad taste to complain about a singular spot that's emerged on your face to a friend who suffers with acne. Or how it would be in bad taste to moan about trivial issues with your husband to a friend going through a bad break up.

It's not tricky!

Exactly @minatrina I remember a friend coming to visit shortly after my boyfriend died and complaining to me about her boyfriend being vaguely irritating about something .
Having a bit of a filter is part of a good and compassionate friendship surely.