Friends, salaries, careers choices and being a Brit - COVID edition

[Covitvaxed]

Had a conversation with a close and long-term friend. We both have post-graduate qualifications and started careers at highly sought (then/now) graduate schemes nearly 20 years ago.

She (Brit) had children and later quit. Now works for an NGO in a clerical and part-time post.
I (non Brit, came to UK for a Masters) had children later and still work full-time and now at an executive level for a UK company based overseas.

I was on track for a promotion - now moratorium on recruitment (internal/external) and no increase for certain levels last year and this year.
A few days ago, we had a Zoom call plus wine and I moaned about this and she snapped and said she is on a minimum wage, and I should "feel privileged to earn more than 20 times the minimum wage", it came as a surprise and quickly ended the call. We are quite open about our lives to one another.

On thinking about this, IABU:

1. Privilege is ability to choose to quit
2. Many women manage child care and full-time jobs and do not expect awards unlike the friend and her types
3. On observation, faux poverty/hardships olympics are a particular British badge of pride for the privileged/political activists class

It’s starting to sound like you and your ‘friend’ don’t actually like each other that much.

@TractorAndHeadphones
In Britain a lot of people choose to step back because they want an easy life. Then moan about having no money and expect the state to take care of them. Barring disabled children they could have worked and juggled everything for those few years but chose the easy way out. And then moan when they pay the price.

Again I’m fully expecting to get flamed but this is also what many of my international friends observed

EXACTLY. And then they act like having more that 20p at the end of the month means the person is hoity toity or “I’d rather have happiness than be tired chasing money”, etc. I’ve seen that on every single MN thread about high earners. Trust me, grinding poverty wears you down much faster folks.

[quote Covitvaxed]@Nightbringer
1.The type who can afford cost of child care and some pains it brings for about 5 years or so.
2.The type whose children are now at schools but refuse professional jobs (they're qualified in) for minimum wage simply to minimise personal stress.

1. They type whose choice is the ultruistic and deem others privileged without considering working full-time and parenting is hard and is not always rewarding.
2. Actually the friend appears quite proud of minimum wage, it's always her go-to response[/quote]

lol I know exactly the type that you mean Deep down I think some of them regret their choices but are too tous to say it!

Again - truly poor people have to bloody work!

Sorry but I think complaining about your lack of promotion and pay rise shows a lack of self awareness at a time when many have lost/are losing their jobs and I'm not surprised your friend was a bit annoyed. You say your circumstances were the same, but we're they really? For most people I know, children have been a career killer for either one or both partners. I've still got my reasonably well paid job but I'm completely trapped as I can't get another post that gives me the same flexibility.

If she’s “proud of her minimum wage,” you certainly sound proud of your “20 times the minimum wage,” if you don’t mind that observation. Most people don’t feel the need to announce their salaries on MN!

Are you someone who wears their salary / career as a badge?

Ultimately, I’m not sure why either if you need to claim any moral high ground about any of this, to be honest.

What has being British got to do with it?

Did you mean to come across as racist? Because that's what it sounds like.

And sorry cross posted with your list of "types," butnumver two seems particularly ignorant. Having children in school actually makes it harder, not easier, to get childcare. I have to cover 13 weeks of school holidays, there is very little in the way of holiday clubs where I live and what there is is often 10 til 3. There's nothing like nursery where you can leave them 8 til 6 51 weeks of the year.

So what about those people who do not have qualifications and cannot afford the costs of childcare?

I think you should not be her friend anymore. (Although I’m not even sure you have been a friend anyway) Seems like she has enough to deal with in her life without having to deal with this.

Oh, and you are privileged to earn 20x the minimum wage.

To clarify, I am unhappy about the hold on promotion and no increase. To say it's insenstive, is to believe you have to be "hard up" to qualify to voice unhappiness.

It was not easy to manage childcare and a job. I accepted it and went on.
The friend brought the salary in the conversation.

I find it particularly pronounced in the UK in comparison to the poorer country i come from.

@Waxonwaxoff0 The thread is not about them

20 times the minimum wage is £340k per year, if you're full time.

If you're on that and she is on £17k, then your lives must be very, very different, and it sounds like the friendship has run its course anyway.

Let it go.

Do you live in a country with cheap/live in childcare OP? Or do you have relatives looking after your kids? You really can’t compare that to living, working and caring for young kids in the UK. I’ve done it both here and abroad and there is no comparison. And yes, I am highly educated and work in a job ‘below’ what I should be doing but I have a disabled child. So that’s life. You don’t sound like a very good friend or a nice person. And yes, I’ve met many women ‘like you’ in my career. Good luck.

You are on twenty times minimum wage and complaining about your salary to someone on minimum wage??
How do people with such a lack of judgment get such high wages?

My friend and I are both British but have had a similar conversation. It was for us about choice - I chose to keep working full time, she chose to stop to have kids. I chose to do a master's, she prioritised kids and he partners carer. We both left the same uni with the same degree (she got a 1st, I didn't) so we had the same opportunities career-wise, we just prioritised different things. She's now a bit bitter because I have a career and a good salary and she's in a part time job with few prospects for growth.

@Waxonwaxoff0

So what about those people who do not have qualifications and cannot afford the costs of childcare?

This thread isn't about them. It's about a very specific subset of people who choose to step back from their career to make their lives easier. Nothing wrong with that at all - except that they refuse to acknowledge it, instead choosing to come up with all sorts of justifications as to why their 'sacrifice' (choice) is morally superior. Contrary to what I said above there are people who don't have a choice - if their wage is too low or a child is disabled etc etc. But plenty more do. The best part is they ignore that their lifestyle on minimum wage is only feasible because someone else is earning the big bucks.

@flowersmakeitbetter I've only seen British people do it but come to think about it I'm not sure if it's a British or class attitude. As all of these people are from relatively well-off backgrounds. Foreign employees in these jobs are usually have visa restrictions/large loans etc to pay back so can't quite even if they wanted to.

You see it on MN too. People commenting about how it's 'dangerous to put kids in nursery' too early, every thread about high earners has some derisive comment about valuing happiness over money. Yes there are issues with the unequal treatment of women in the workplace but attitudes like this don't help it.

@Covitvaxed

To clarify, I am unhappy about the hold on promotion and no increase. To say it's insenstive, is to believe you have to be "hard up" to qualify to voice unhappiness.

It was not easy to manage childcare and a job. I accepted it and went on.
The friend brought the salary in the conversation.

I find it particularly pronounced in the UK in comparison to the poorer country i come from.

Because poorer countries have no welfare provision. Or even fair divorce laws. If you don't work you don't eat. It's of course good that it's not like that in the UK but there is a reason for people's mindsets. An insurance policy in the form of work is always needed.

What i mean is the UK is a rich country and many people are not poor. Citizens can choose to quit jobs for less stress. But there is a tendency for people who trade high pay for low income jobs to feel entitled to "compassion" compared to people who actually have no choice and no qualification type jobs - they get on with it.

The way I read the OP is:

You were complaining about not having got a promotion/raise

Friend says you are privileged to earn so much as she earns MW

In that case

A) you were bloody insensitive to be moaning about pay to a friend who earns MW

B) yes she needs to recognise that her pay level is partly due to her choices

C) you need to recognise that people’s pay level is not all about their choices. Perhaps she has more difficult DC than you, or couldn’t afford childcare to keep up her previous job level, or didn’t have as supportive or flexible a partner.

Overall, I’m with your friend.

BBC Radio 4 today - the UK has the second most expensive childcare in the world. It’s not hard to see how parents struggle with cc costs.

@MrsKrystalStubbs I've worked in the UK when my children were young

I agree with both points but I’m not about to wear a hair shirt when in a friendly catch up call to a long term mate who has chosen a different path to me.

I think it's more of a certain of squishy middle class (not just British) you are talking about. It's too wide a category otherwise.

You earn £200 per hour, your friend less than £10. Neither of you seem to have much empathy towards the other person.