Friends, salaries, careers choices and being a Brit - COVID edition

[Covitvaxed]

Had a conversation with a close and long-term friend. We both have post-graduate qualifications and started careers at highly sought (then/now) graduate schemes nearly 20 years ago.

She (Brit) had children and later quit. Now works for an NGO in a clerical and part-time post.
I (non Brit, came to UK for a Masters) had children later and still work full-time and now at an executive level for a UK company based overseas.

I was on track for a promotion - now moratorium on recruitment (internal/external) and no increase for certain levels last year and this year.
A few days ago, we had a Zoom call plus wine and I moaned about this and she snapped and said she is on a minimum wage, and I should "feel privileged to earn more than 20 times the minimum wage", it came as a surprise and quickly ended the call. We are quite open about our lives to one another.

On thinking about this, IABU:

1. Privilege is ability to choose to quit
2. Many women manage child care and full-time jobs and do not expect awards unlike the friend and her types
3. On observation, faux poverty/hardships olympics are a particular British badge of pride for the privileged/political activists class

I don't think either of you are wrong but you also shouldn't be judging each other either.

@Covitvaxed

To clarify, I am unhappy about the hold on promotion and no increase. To say it's insenstive, is to believe you have to be "hard up" to qualify to voice unhappiness.

It was not easy to manage childcare and a job. I accepted it and went on.
The friend brought the salary in the conversation.

I find it particularly pronounced in the UK in comparison to the poorer country i come from.

Not at all, it's about knowing your audience. I am a low earner but I manage OK, I wouldn't go moaning about my wage to somebody who was struggling so much that they have to choose between heating and eating. It's called having some tact.

So what about people who do nursing degrees and then can’t afford to buy a house?

I suppose people in lower paid (vital) roles in society should just ‘level up.’ Ok then.

Sounds like your friend made a decision to be around more for her children than you did. Perhaps her husband was prepared to support her in this in a way yours wasn’t? Maybe she wanted something different out if life? I don’t know. Is this what’s bugging you?

I don’t know if she has a chip on her shoulder or not, but I do think you also need to question why you’re worked up enough to post about this (clue - it’s not all about her and her reaction).

I get where you are coming from, OP. I guess the truth is that we all have mixed feelings about our choices:

• parent A chose/was able to to give up work, they were glad to be able to prioritise time with their children, but now feel professionally sidelined and wonder what comes next when their kids leave home

• parent B chose/was able to juggle full time work and kids, they are glad that they've kept up their professional profile and earning power, but feel a bit sad about how hard it all was at times, and the compromises they had to make.

Nobody has it all, and maybe some of those mixed feelings are coming out on both sides here.

@Covitvaxed

What i mean is the UK is a rich country and many people are not poor. Citizens can choose to quit jobs for less stress. But there is a tendency for people who trade high pay for low income jobs to feel entitled to "compassion" compared to people who actually have no choice and no qualification type jobs - they get on with it.

You're not going to get much sympathy on here. Particularly as a lot of people here have done the same - and regret it when their children get older and leave home. Your friend is the one who snapped at you so it's really her who was taking it personally, not you.

The UK has some of the highest relative childcare costs in the developed world which may explain the perception that this is a particularly British thing.
www.newstatesman.com/chart-of-the-day/2021/09/how-the-uk-has-the-third-most-expensive-childcare-in-the-developed-world

We’re also subject to what some sociologists refer to as a ‘genuine first world problem’; families tend to be more isolated from support networks and wider family groups so little informal childcare or other familial support. This actually worsens higher up the socio-economic and educational scales.
Add to that a high relative cost of labour (ie cleaning, gardening etc etc) and it becomes clear why many families choose to reduce working hours once they have children.

I don’t entirely disagree about oppression olympics but the general tone of your OP and responses suggests you don’t have much empathy or awareness of different cultures

Not only is childcare very expensive. It is so hard to find good ones. At least in London.

@AudHvamm

The UK has some of the highest relative childcare costs in the developed world which may explain the perception that this is a particularly British thing. www.newstatesman.com/chart-of-the-day/2021/09/how-the-uk-has-the-third-most-expensive-childcare-in-the-developed-world

We’re also subject to what some sociologists refer to as a ‘genuine first world problem’; families tend to be more isolated from support networks and wider family groups so little informal childcare or other familial support. This actually worsens higher up the socio-economic and educational scales.
Add to that a high relative cost of labour (ie cleaning, gardening etc etc) and it becomes clear why many families choose to reduce working hours once they have children.

I don’t entirely disagree about oppression olympics but the general tone of your OP and responses suggests you don’t have much empathy or awareness of different cultures

But many foreigners (who have zero family) pay and manage. The OP isn't talking about 'people in general' quitting their jobs. But those who had a choice .

It's galling to be snapped and called privileged when you have made enormous sacrifices to keep family and career afloat. Of blood, sweat, and tears.
Being called 'privileged' by someone who had no prospects/was forced out is perfectly acceptable.
But someone who had every opportunity and just made different choices? Unacceptable.
'Wah wah mummy I chose this toy and now my sibling's looks better'.

You were both a bit unreasonable. You didn't read the room and were a bit insensitive to your friend's situation. She lost it and snapped back at you, perhaps because she's having a bad day, financial issues or something's not going right in her life.

You're at a crossroads in the friendship for how you deal with this. As far as I can see, there are two options. Either you pull back, offended, and cool the friendship. Or you be the bigger person, accept that we all have our bad days and our regrets in life (even if usually we don't articulate them) and you "love-bomb" your friend a little. Apologise if you made her feel bad, ask if everything is OK and remind her that you're there if she wants to chat. Her response will let you know where things stand, e.g. if she messages back "It's not you, it's me. I'm just going through a difficult patch right now and a bit touchy".

Is that you Rishi?

Why are you friends if you judge each other this much?

I agree with your perspective on your friend but I don't see this as a particularly British issue.

Rishi Sunak was born in the uk.

As much as I don't like the Tories or their attitude towards people who didn't make it big in the world , hopefully you aren't also suggesting that brown people aren't British?

@Covitvaxed Its better when the kids are very young and you can use nursery or a nanny. It’s when they go to primary school and you need to find after school and wrap around and holiday care. If your kid has special needs this is virtually impossible. I’m not British by the way, so maybe I don’t ‘get’ what you’re saying. I enjoy working as it gives me something to do and keeps my mind from worrying about my child’s issues. Your friend probably does regret her choices, I do sometimes but for me there was no choice/alternative option.

@Itsnotover

Rishi Sunak was born in the uk.

As much as I don't like the Tories or their attitude towards people who didn't make it big in the world , hopefully you aren't also suggesting that brown people aren't British?

No. That's racist The issue is about not understanding why people don't just earn more money as if its simply a choice that people make to be poor

The issue is about not understanding why people don't just earn more money as if its simply a choice that people make to be poor

Ah, yes. 100% with you on this point.

@SeasonFinale

You lost me at "friend and her types" in your item 2 which sounds dismissive and bitchy.

Same.

Your position is frustrating, but sometimes you have to read the room. I don't moan about my comfortable well-paid job to friends who are unemployed, underemployed, or on NMW.

@Itsnotover

The issue is about not understanding why people don't just earn more money as if its simply a choice that people make to be poor

Ah, yes. 100% with you on this point.

But this isn't a discussion about 'people'. It's about OP's friend who was on a prestigious grad scheme with her. Point 3 of the OP refers to the privileged/political activists @Onemorebaby

Perhaps I'm biased but I have come across a lot of these people. I went to an elite uni and then onto a grad scheme as well. Most of the people who quit not only could afford childcare (and then some) but had high earning spouses.
Frankly it's an insult to the people who actually had to quit for the above category to pretend that they are also oppressed. Maybe UK childcare is expensive for a developed country but choosing not to pay it when you can doesn't put you in the same category as someone else who had no choice!

Actually, I do think there's a particular British cultural thing happening here. I'm also not from the UK, but I'm Irish, so not a million miles away culturally or 'developed country'-wise, and I did my postgrad in the UK. I'd have two quite similar 'bubbles' in both countries: lots of high earning professional women.

It is absolutely the case that quite a large number of the British women have chosen to go part time/step back from their careers after children in a way none of the Irish ones (or indeed most of the women from other countries I met studying in the UK) have done. I actually think its interesting in that I wonder if the ability to work part time may in fact be a hindrance than a positive thing.

So, I went back to work and my husband and I did 50%. of pick ups and drop offs, we chose to live quite centrally and close to our childcare to enable this, our careers have remained equally important and we both do 50/50 housework etc. There is much less provision or cultural acceptance for women in professional jobs to work part time here IME - which most people assume is quite anti-women. However, this is compared to: couples moving further out so the kids can have a bigger garden, wife dropping down to 3 days a week till kids are in school and doing all the pick-ups/drop offs, then deciding role is too demanding to be done part time so doing something else, which has happened with loads of British friends.

Obviously, you're talking about massive privilege to be able to make those choices - lots of people in both countries obviously don't have that option, can't even necessarily afford childcare or make it work, but like the OPI am 100% talking about women where it was a choice. And actually, DH and I aren't in fancy high paying jobs, we can just about cover the childcare years but we've both chosen the more 'vocational' roles over higher earning alternatives. I'm still totally ok with v high earning friends complaining about their careers because we all make different choices.

But I am interested in why, culturally, its so different. For example, I know a few v high-earning couples where both are at partner-in-city-law-firm level: the UK-based ones, the wife stepped back after kids, they moved far out of the city, etc etc. The Irish ones, they got a live in nanny and run their diaries with military precision. My male friends here have stepped up more childcare-wise because there's no other choice.

I do think OP. it sounds like there may be more going on than you realise. Its possible its less of a choice than you think, that her husband simply wasn't prepared to facilitate her working and that she sees you being successful and it hurts. You do talk about her with something like contempt. I'm not in either of your shoes - I'm working, but not in a long-hours very high-earning way, and I'm really happy with the compromises I make. I look at people I know both in your position, and your friends position, and neither of those choices appeals to me AT ALL, but I accept both than I'm v lucky and that different people want different things (and generally still get to moan about having a bad day). But what is really clear is that your friend obviously isn't happy, or I don't think she'd react the way she did.

Interesting post, @leakymcleakleak. I was very struck when I had my DD that absolutely none of the mums that I met went back to work FT. I went back FT because that was the norm in my industry, but later dropped to PT (as a single parent). I'm generally happy with the choices I've made and have been lucky that I've been able to "stay in the game" but I wonder whether I would have gone PT if that hadn't been so common? I literally can't think of a woman I know personally outside my industry who has remained working FT with young kids. It's interesting that it's so different in Ireland.

I have long thought that having 12 months maternity leave (often closer to 14 months with accrued holiday) contributes to people returning part-time - it's a big step to go back FT having been completely out of the workplace for over a year. Not saying that we should reduce mat leave, of course, but I do think the two things are connected.

Really great post by @leakymcleakleak and the others by @TractorAndHeadphones.

I also don’t recognise this scenario where women, faced with the privilege of ‘choice,’ decide to put their children in full-time childcare. I would say, where I live is one if the most affluent areas of the U.K. (SW London) and I literally don’t know anyone who did this. Nobody at all.

I know one woman who had a full-time nanny for her children. She was a very high-earner in a corporate field and su was her husband. They had been in the Far East before having kids. It was all fine until the eldest was about 9 and it became apparent that he was falling behind at school because the nanny couldn’t properly help with the homework (he was also dyslexic). In the end the husband became the SAHP and the son has now done amazingly well (just got into Oxford). Anyway, the point is, it’s definitely less common around here to have two full-on working parents - even though, on average, these families will easily be in the top 5% of net worth. I don’t know if this is a British thing or not? I know many ex-pat families where the wives don’t work - Europeans, Russians, Middle Eastern. London is full of such families.

I do know one lady who came here from Indonesia with her two kids and her nanny (who spoke no English at all). She had left her husband back in Jakarta. I assumed they were separating. It turned out they were t separating at all, she just had an opportunity here so she followed it. She thought nothing of it. She worked long hours and travelled around Europe with her work and left the kids with the nanny. They were here 5 years and the children saw their dad once a year (for a week in the summer). The other week he was here, the mum and him went in holiday by themselves! She was a lovely woman, but I admit to finding this set-up quite extreme. Eventually she went back (reluctantly) but was trying to get another position in the US.

I think you’ve misunderstood the purpose of my post, which was to give context to why families working in the uk, whether British or not, & particularly those from the backgrounds the op is talking about, might choose to reduce their working hours.

@leakymcleakleak makes some interesting points about why the (mostly women) might later feel that ‘choice’ was not made from a position of privilege.

The above was reply to @TractorAndHeadphones

Totally agree. There is a race to the bottom attitude in our culture, where people equate all high achievers with being privileged. Women can often be scathing to other women (envy perhaps) when they see them juggling both career and a job. You made a better choice than your friend, she took the easy route, and now feels hard done by because she threw her career away.