Cheated out of inheritance.

[Watzzap]

Sorry this might be quite long. My late dh, who passed away 10 months ago, had 1 sibling. Both he and sibling had POA for fil. I know fil did not have a Will. Fil was in a Care Home as could not manage at home. Prior to him going into Care my dh and I were first contacts for fil on Community Alarm System and visited him every day. Saying this to show we did help out and have had a lot of input with Fil. We also regularly visited fil in his Care Home.

Fil passed away 6 months ago. As my dh had also died, sil organised funeral and sorted out finances. I did not expect to receive anything from my fil’s estate, but I expected my dcs to receive their DF’s share. However, apparently fil had very little to leave, therefore my dc’s share was only £1k each! When I asked sil what had happened to the rest of fil’s money she said that was all that was left after funeral costs etc.! For background, Sil has solely dealt with fil’s finances for quite a few years, however both she and my dh were named on his main account as had joint POA, until my dh died. I also know sil has withdrawn and hid money in the past, so fil got his Care Home place paid for (needed to be less than £23250). She also took his car and gave it to her son. I also know that fil had numerous Life Insurances etc. My dh was very laid back and just let her get on with things and never said anything about how his ds dealt with fil’s finances.

Fil’s funeral costs would be around £3/4K. It now looks like she has kept all the money to herself from the account she (and my dh, prior to his death) was named on and paid all expenses from his other account, which was solely in his name. Even taking this into consideration, with his other insurances, there should have been a lot more than the £6k she says is all that was left!

Is there anything I can do? As I said, I do not want anything, but feel that my 3 dcs have been cheated out of their inheritance.

How didn’t the LA find out about the siphoning of funds from the bank account? They usually leave no stone unturned and go back years to look for ‘deprivation of assets’. They would certainly question why there were regular large cash withdrawals.
How much cash are we talking?
I doubt they’d have been interested if she was just creaming off a few hundred here and there to keep him under the limit.
If she emptied his main and other account (other than say arranging for payment for the funeral) then that IS illegal as POA ends on death. We weren’t allowed access to FiL’s account until DH and DSiL got probate - the bank paid the funeral bill direct to the undertakers.
Whether anything can actually be done about her actions is a different matter, unfortunately.

@PinkiOcelot

I’m very surprised that your SIL has managed to get away with this. I had to provide the council with bank statements going back a year before my Mam was resident in her care home. What she has done is deprivation of assets if she moved the money less than 7 years of your FIL going in to care. Disgusting really, but I’m guessing she’s actually the tip of the iceberg!

I am surprised at this too. Isn't providing bank statements the norm? Otherwise anyone could say no sorry I don't have enough money.

@In4mation

It’s a big can of worms. Do you care if confronting her causes a huge rift? That makes a difference to how far you push this.

I don’t care how huge a rift this causes. It was different when dh was alive as he thought the world of his ds and she couldn’t do any wrong in his eyes.

My dcs just say to let it go, as they don’t want me getting worked up after losing their DF just before last Christmas, but I feel guilty that they haven’t received their entitlement.

If nothing else, I think I may report her for fraud. I expect I’ll get accused of being spiteful on here for that!

www.gov.uk/guidance/make-a-claim-to-a-deceased-persons-estate

Rules of intestacy above.

If Mil not alive FiL’s estate is divided 50/50 between his children. If a child is dead that child’s share passes to his/her children.

As others have said however a joint account does not form part of an estate. If the bulk of FiL’s estate was held in an account in your sister in law and late husband’s name, the account passes to the sister in law on your husband’s death.

Seek legal advice.

I feel guilty that they haven’t received their entitlement

I'm very sorry for your losses. But no-one is entitled to anything. Maybe reset your expectations (and those of your children). Help them heal and forget about the money.

@GreenFingersWouldBeHandy

I feel guilty that they haven’t received their entitlement

I'm very sorry for your losses. But no-one is entitled to anything. Maybe reset your expectations (and those of your children). Help them heal and forget about the money.

I understand your sentiment and when I saw the thread title I thought here we go another entitled thread. But the law of intestacy says they are entitled to the money

You have had a very upsetting time. I think you should get proper legal advice - but you have to consider if it is proved your s'n'law defrauded the social care system and tricked them into getting NHs care for your f'n'law - than the social care system can ask for the money back anyway? So I doubt you will achieve your objective of getting inheritance for your children. Because if she had not of taken the money - your f'n'law would have needed to use this money for his care. Care can cost £2-4k a month - so unless you are saying she squirreled a lot more than this away - I am not sure there will be any left for your children anyway?
I get that you feel your late husband was not involved because he did not take any money - but you know about the fraud because he did know about it too - and you will have to tell social services he or you knew what she was doing but choose to stay quiet and let her break the law. Can you see how this could get complicated?
Personally, I would look at what you think your husband would want and console myself on following his wishes.

[quote Watzzap]**@ilovesooty you are correct, you are not sufficiently informed to comment on the legal position.

There is absolutely no evidence of any dishonesty by either myself or my dh, because we were not dishonest. The POA only goes back 3 years to when fil was waiting to go into care. At this stage my dh and sil opened a new current account on my fil’s behalf, with both able to deal with fil’s finances. There had definitely been no money illegally removed from this account prior to my dh’s death The dishonesty of hiding/taking money from fil by my sil was prior to this, therefore my dh is not implicated in any way.

Thank you so much for your ill wishes, please find them returned![/quote]
It's a good job I'm not commenting on the legal position then. At least we're agreed on that, so I don't see why you needed to repeat it.

You were aware of your sister in law's siphoning off of money in the past. Your husband didn't want to rock the boat though and you didn't expose the dishonesty at the time.

My hope that the local authorities pursue deprivation of assets is not a personal wish of ill towards you, however you interpreted it. If you do stir this up it might come to their attention, which I think would be a good thing. I don't like fraud, which is what your sister in law appears to have committed.

As others suggested dobbing your SiL in might result in losing a lot of money you're counting on. My suggestion would be telling her that's what you will do if she doesn't give your children fair share.

Yes, it might not be morally right but you're essentially playing her at her own dirty game. If she says no, they you tell her, good luck with the Local Authorities looking into your fraud...

Not like you want to keep a relationship with her!

I am sorry, but I agree with others who have mentioned that your oh was complicit in fraud and it has come back to bite you,.I was totally honest when I declared my late fathers savings etc .I inherited a third of £23,250 which was all he was allowed to keep,I shared it with my brother and sister...that is the kind of family we are.Honest and proud of it.

If your FIL died intestate (without a will) then your SIL inherits everything outright - assuming FIL wasn't married / didn't have any more children etc.

No cheating here, she's entitled to all of it.

^^
This

I really wouldn’t rock the boat if she’s willing to give them £1k each! It’s literally a gift from her if she does this.

@oakleaffy

Why should he have had free care home costs while others have to pay and subsidise those who are funded by Council?!

Council subsidised care is NOT FREE. However many times I see this and correct it up it pops, usually followed by 'never worked in their lives' bs. People in care have to pay all their income (dependent spouses are allowed some) less about £30 a week for personal purchases. It's subsidised but it's not free

I just hope the council get back their “entitlement” too.

@GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing

If your FIL died intestate (without a will) then your SIL inherits everything outright - assuming FIL wasn't married / didn't have any more children etc.

No cheating here, she's entitled to all of it.

^^
This

I really wouldn’t rock the boat if she’s willing to give them £1k each! It’s literally a gift from her if she does this.

But he did have more children-Op's husband!

But as he predeceased his father, his children are entitled to what would have been his share.

Perhaps the 1k each is it?

My mum received £20 a week personal allowance. Her children paid for clothes and outings and everything else.
In 3 years she paid £95,000 in fees.

@JellyfishandShells

‘

You may not have benefited thus far but, if there is a large sum in the estate that you think your SIL is holding back from your children, it is there precisely because it has not gone on care fees because the council was picking up the bill, due to fraud.

You are wanting your children to benefit from the fraud after the fact.

You are completely wrong and I do resent your implication that my dcs would be benefitting from fraud!

Any money, which they are entitled to inherit and benefit from, is the money which was in my fil’s estate on his death. This money is legal and what he was allowed to keep when he went into Care. This money did not and should not have gone on Care fees! If you bother to look up the laws and guidelines for someone going into Care you will see that they are legally allowed to keep a maximum amount of their personal money back.

Any money which was defrauded was taken out before fil went into Care. None of this came to my dh or any of my dcs. Any money that was defrauded was taken by sil. She is the only one who has defrauded the system! Plus, she wasn’t happy with just that, she is now trying to defraud my dcs out of their legal inheritance!

I don't think you're wrong for at least attempting to go after what you're owed by seeing a solicitor. Why would you bother preserving a family relationship with someone who steals money from children? They're clearly not going to help you out when you need it.

@GreenFingersWouldBeHandy

I feel guilty that they haven’t received their entitlement

I'm very sorry for your losses. But no-one is entitled to anything. Maybe reset your expectations (and those of your children). Help them heal and forget about the money.

If the grandfather left an estate then they are very much entitled to receive their dads share.

"This money did not and should not have gone on Care fees! If you bother to look up the laws and guidelines for someone going into Care you will see that they are legally allowed to keep a maximum amount of their personal money back."

In the first post you put that SIL hid some of his savings so that he was at the limit, so it's possible that he should have contributed something.

That middle class fraud (oh so much more acceptable than general lower class benefit fraud) of hiding assets in order to qualify for care home fees paid/care paid etc. Quite casual fraud and of course 'not really crime'. Difficult to have much sympathy. "I also know sil has withdrawn and hid money in the past, so fil got his Care Home place paid for (needed to be less than £23250). She also took his car and gave it to her son. I also know that fil had numerous Life Insurances etc"

So the hidden assets are not kept by the daughter and since no will then she keeps and probably all in her name anyway by now the minute your late husband passed. The life assurances etc would probably pass directly to his daughter.

now is not type changes it incorrectly

@Watzzap

You should report her for fraud though.

@bossybloss

I am sorry, but I agree with others who have mentioned that your oh was complicit in fraud and it has come back to bite you,.I was totally honest when I declared my late fathers savings etc .I inherited a third of £23,250 which was all he was allowed to keep,I shared it with my brother and sister...that is the kind of family we are.Honest and proud of it.

My dh’s only “crime” is that he trusted his ds, that does NOT make him complicit in any fraud by her!

Since he became a POA and was named as being able to operate his DF’s bank account there had been NO improprieties in fil’s accounts whilst dh was still alive!

Again, I resent you implying that we are not an honest family, we most certainly are. Neither my late dh (who is no longer able to defend himself) nor myself have ever been involved in any attempt to defraud or receive money we were not entitled too!

If there was £20k plus in his account at the time of his death then SiL had no legal right to access it prior to obtaining letters of administration and when she gained said permission she was under legal obligation to distribute his estate as per intestacy laws.

As legal beneficiaries, your Sons (or you as their guardian) should request details of the estate and take it from there.

I’d report her, unless you have a good relationship which you don’t want to damage.