To not be sleep training baby?

[Willowrose63]

Hello there!

My baby is nearly 8 months old. At night it takes about 45min to settle to sleep(combo of cuddles,nursing,crawling around our bed,singing and then we transfer her into her own cot). There's no crying and it tends to be a lovely snuggly time. She tends to wake up 3 to 4 times per night and wants to breastfeed back to sleep. There were were few occasions when she only woke once or twice but I couldn't figure out if I'd done anything different on those days. My husband has tried settling her various times but she gets more and more worked up. She did have about one month when she would nap in her cot but now has gone back to only contact napping or in pram or car. Naps total 1.5 to 2.5 hours per day. This I do find draining because it means I have no time apart from baby during the day, I do bedtimes and she only wants me(boobs) during the night. I have been feeling OK about her nighttime sleep just because it is so much better than she was for the first few months of her life and she doesn't take long to settle when she does wake up.

Met up with a couple of Mums from my mums group today and one said that her baby had woken up twice during the night TOTAL in the last 2 weeks and otherwise had slept through every night. Tbh it did take the wind out of my sails a bit. All the other mums in our nct group have done some form of sleep training/ controlled crying and rave about it. Some are saying that their babies fall asleep within 5 mins and settle themselves for naps and everything.

We had been thinking that our experience is pretty common. Feeling a bit like the odd ones out and she's our first baby so don't have any comparison.
My Mum says that breastfed babies just don't sleep well and that's the way it is.

Would love to hear others experiences!

@seaandsandcastles

YANBU. I don’t agree with sleep training.

They can rave about it all they want, but the reality is that their baby doesn’t cry simply because they have learnt it’s pointless. They have learnt nobody is coming to comfort them when they’re hungry/cold/hot/sad/just want a hug.

So they can pat themselves on the back for a piss poor job while neglecting their baby when they need their parent the most if they want 🤷‍♀️

Don’t ever doubt yourself. You’re there for baby when they need you. Parenting was never going to be easy, but it is worthwhile

This is dangerous bullshit. You're changing a baby's sleep associations, they're pissed off at first but then they are fine. They still cry when they wake and are distressed or I'll. You can tell the difference between different types of cry. They just don't cry when they're alone in their cot. DD used to sing twinkle twinkle to herself loudly when she woke in the night but that must have been masking the terrible distress

I think it's fine not to sleep train but for some people it's a lifeline. You're parroting horrible crap that will put people off sleep training when they might need it for their sanity. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Sleep training is abusive! That’s my view anyway. Why would you let your baby scream them selves to sleep? Completely distressed and distraught and give up as no one is coming…..what does that teach them ? When my kids were babies there were definitely 2 camps. The Gina Ford cult and the ‘ natural’ crew. Sounds like you are set on breastfeeding, but could be that your baby needs a bit more? Mine had hungry baby formula last thing at night and were well into weaning too so stodgy for tea.
Don’t forget that it’s your baby any you can do what you want. Don’t feel pressured to do something you aren’t happy with just because there’s so it.

@B1rthis

It is illegal to sleep train in parts of Europe because it's so damaging to a baby's development. The front of the brain is developing and with each stressful moment your child develops paths in their brain that then goes on to cause anxiety and depression in adulthood. Babies are biologically wired to depend on their parents to settle them. No one, not even adults sleep through the night (think midnight wee, sip of drink, going to bed late or getting up and the crack of dawn) Like learning to talk and walk and roll over, sleeping is a developmental milestones that cannot be controlled or taught. Western countries are renowned for their tearful children which is rare in other countries. We refuse to trust out babies, we refuse to believe that our babies know what's best for them. God forbid you trust mother nature over some mum in a group. Ignore the noise. Your baby knows you and you know her the best.

The same kind of thinking would stop women from working after having children. It's not natural to leave your kids with someone else, after all.

Babies have sleep cues. If they think they need contact to sleep, that's how they go to sleep. They can learn to associate their cot and teddies etc with sleep.

As for babies not going through stress, you'd never take them anywhere. You need to distinguish between prolonged abusive Romanian orphanage type stress where no one ever responds to them, versus a few nights of slightly less response than usual in an otherwise loving home. All the studies about negative outcomes are for kids for are not responded to ever in a neglectful situation. Babies are much tougher than you think, they can cope with adapting to something new over a few nights.

You know what would have been ‘stressful’ for my baby? Me walking in front of a fucking bus as I was so demented with sleep deprivation. I didn’t bond with her properly for months because of the lack of sleep. I was referred to the mental health team with suspected PND. You know what resolved it? Gently training her to sleep (not CIO) without waking multiple times a night. God knows what would have happened if I hadn’t done it.

All of you smug, judgmental twats can fuck off. I did what was right for me and my child. And no, it didn’t teach her that ‘when she cries, nobody comes’ - she’s six now and still calls for me in the night when she needs to. You don’t know what you’re talking about.

@BBOA

Sleep training is abusive! That’s my view anyway. Why would you let your baby scream them selves to sleep? Completely distressed and distraught and give up as no one is coming…..what does that teach them ? When my kids were babies there were definitely 2 camps. The Gina Ford cult and the ‘ natural’ crew. Sounds like you are set on breastfeeding, but could be that your baby needs a bit more? Mine had hungry baby formula last thing at night and were well into weaning too so stodgy for tea. Don’t forget that it’s your baby any you can do what you want. Don’t feel pressured to do something you aren’t happy with just because there’s so it.

Sleep training by sitting by your baby's cot patting or shushing them might not be something you'd do, but abusive? Really?

People who don't sleep train have a vested interest in making out sleep training to be horrible because why else would they have spent all those sleepless nights? You have to make the misery sound worth it.

I think not sleep training is a valid choice, I can see why people don't like it but this kind of hyperbole is ridiculous. They cry and you soothe without picking them up. Usually for maybe three nights. Then they sleep through. It's not like you leave them alone in a draughty attic to scream for all eternity.

Babies who aren't sleep trained will wake and cry 3 or more times a night. It's more crying than a sleep trained baby overall.

And ‘sleep training is illegal in certain parts of Europe’? Bullshit.

@B1rthis

It is illegal to sleep train in parts of Europe because it's so damaging to a baby's development. The front of the brain is developing and with each stressful moment your child develops paths in their brain that then goes on to cause anxiety and depression in adulthood. Babies are biologically wired to depend on their parents to settle them. No one, not even adults sleep through the night (think midnight wee, sip of drink, going to bed late or getting up and the crack of dawn) Like learning to talk and walk and roll over, sleeping is a developmental milestones that cannot be controlled or taught. Western countries are renowned for their tearful children which is rare in other countries. We refuse to trust out babies, we refuse to believe that our babies know what's best for them. God forbid you trust mother nature over some mum in a group. Ignore the noise. Your baby knows you and you know her the best.

This is bollocks and I hope no worried, sleep deprived parents read it. Honestly, people should be ashamed of themselves for spouting such crap. I hope they can take your final piece of advice and “ignore the noise” - that’s all posts like yours are.

@bookworm14

You know what would have been ‘stressful’ for my baby? Me walking in front of a fucking bus as I was so demented with sleep deprivation. I didn’t bond with her properly for months because of the lack of sleep. I was referred to the mental health team with suspected PND. You know what resolved it? Gently training her to sleep (not CIO) without waking multiple times a night. God knows what would have happened if I hadn’t done it.

All of you smug, judgmental twats can fuck off. I did what was right for me and my child. And no, it didn’t teach her that ‘when she cries, nobody comes’ - she’s six now and still calls for me in the night when she needs to. You don’t know what you’re talking about.

This. 1000 times this.

I was back at work full-time when my son was 6 months old. By 11 months old we called in a sleep consultant. He was waking 3-4 times every night. I was broken. There were days when I could barely look at him as I staggered off to work in the morning. I was making dangerous mistakes in my job. I resented him and his whole existence some days.

He slept through on night 3 of sleep-training. First night, we never left the room until he was asleep. Second night we built up to an absolute maximum of 10 minutes before going back in. Night 3 he settled himself happily to sleep and slept through. He was so happy and alert when he woke up that we realised how much he had needed to sleep more as well as us needing him to sleep more!

You tell me those 2 nights were more damaging to him than the weeks when his mother couldn’t bear to be near him. You tell me that after just 2 nights he learnt to never cry ever again because “no-one was coming to him”. You explain to me why at 7 years old, I’m still the first person he calls to if he needs anything, or if he’s had a bad dream.

Sleep train or don’t sleep train, but don’t you dare call me abusive for helping my son learn to settle to sleep.

I think it completely depends on each family. I have friends who went back to work at 8/9 months who sleep trained because they needed at decent night sleep. We did training at about 1yo because after a year of no sleep I couldn't take anymore. I don't think I'm an abusive neglectful parent because I let him cry a bit (when he was already up crying half the night anyway).

Is your DD in their own room yet? We made the transition after DS was one and the difference in sleep was major. He would toss and turn a lot in his sleep and I would immediately settle him by stroking his face or I'd go down to our room too quickly if I noticed him stirring on the monitor. Once he was in his own room and it wasn't that easy to just pop my hand into the cot I noticed he would settle himself/find his dummy and pop it back in himself. I realised me jumping in before he began to cry was stopping him learning to do those things. Now I watch and wait,if he is showing signs of being upset I go in at the first sound of a cry. He still gets into our bed half way through the night but he gets a good 6+hours on his own without much intervention from us
DS was also a contact napper and I never thought Id see the day where he would nap in his cot. It's clichéd but he did it when he was ready and not a second before. I would intermittently try and never worked until one week it just clicked with him and all naps are now in the cot (unless he is sick/teething)

@seaandsandcastles

From what I've heard sometimes it is necessary for parents mental health which in turn is better for baby.

No, it’s not better for baby to pass your stress and anxiety onto them. It’s selfish.

When baby is left to cry they are feeling a stress response, and when parents think their sleep training has worked, baby is still feeling that stress response… but alone. And silently. While parent is happy. That’s awful.

Parent brings baby into this world; they have no business then passing their stress to their baby and sitting down all happy because their cruelty has “worked”.

Honestly, fuck off!

Mine had hungry baby formula last thing at night and were well into weaning too so stodgy for tea

@BBOA You say sleep training is abusive but essentially drugging your baby with food isn't exactly stellar parenting advice. Did your baby actually need hungry baby formula as your post reads like you just gave it to him at night to make him sleep?

I'm not a fan of CIO but I also have a baby that,while sleep isn't perfect, did sleep for long stretches from birth. Sickness/teething meant some awful nights and I'd be on the floor with tiredness but its always temporary. If it was like that all the time, as I've seen with some friends, I could see why you would have to do something. Unless you don't work and have a team of people that can cook,clean and look after the baby while you sleep, then permanent exhaustion is not an option. Your baby needs you functioning 24/7. I suspect some people on this thread had good sleepers who were easy to get back to sleep again.

@Lostmarbles2021

Holskey - message above is to you. I can’t work out how to reply without needing to cut and paste. Technology is not my area of expertise!

@lostmarbles2021 😂 Thank you

I posted on here a while ago about my baby’s terrible sleep and it ended up in a discussion about sleep training. I think that was at around 8 months and DD wasn’t sleeping more than a couple of hours at a time. She did get a bit better and we were in a similar position to you - waking ever 3 hoursish, being fed back to sleep, ending up cosleeping - though she did nap in her cot. It wasn’t ideal but it worked.

All my NCT group except for me did some form of cry it out/controlled crying sleep training and their babies learned to sleep through the night quickly with the training.

As I’m going back to work imminently and DD has just turned one, we got a sleep consultant to come up with a plan to improve DDs sleep as, although I like the night time cuddles, I won’t be able to do work and up to 6 wakings a night. It has been absolutely amazing. We started the process about a month ago and for the last 2.5 weeks DD has slept through every night except one. I wouldn’t say there have been no tears, she protested when we changed her routine, but we don’t leave her alone to cry and pick her up for cuddles if she does. The plan involves changing a lot, both about her sleep, wind down and day activities but it’s been revolutionary. I think the three things that made the most difference were - moving her to her own room, night weaning and getting her outside and active during the day.

What I’d say is that people use the term sleep training synonymously with some form of controlled crying - it doesn’t always have to be. I’m glad I didn’t do controlled crying (no judgment, I’d probably have ended up there if the softer stuff hadn’t worked) but I probably should have looked at the other changes earlier than we did - though I miss night time cuddles!

@DrinkFeckArseBrick

" They can rave about it all they want, but the reality is that their baby doesn’t cry simply because they have learnt it’s pointless. They have learnt nobody is coming to comfort them when they’re hungry/cold/hot/sad/just want a hug.

So they can pat themselves on the back for a piss poor job while neglecting their baby when they need their parent the most if they want 🤷‍♀️"

I hate this view
There is no evidence for this
There are gentle forms of sleep training where the baby isnt left alone to cry
I sleep trained, my baby still cried sometimes and i went in. But they cried when they were genuinely upset, had a nightmare or were ill or something, not just because they had developed a habit of needing me to go back to sleep after every sleep cycle
Not everyone gives themselves a 'pat on the back'. Some of us felt like we couldnt cope with being woken up to comfort feed 7+ times every bloody night for 7 months and it seemed like the lesser of two evils at the time as the tiredness was affecting every aspect of our lives.

@DrinkFeckArseBrick decided I liked you due to this reply, then noticed your name and liked you even more!! I'm currently lying in bed, with my 6mo in her next2me, gently encouraging her to sleep through for her afternoon nap (she still likes 2-2.5 hours. I let her try to self settle for a while, pat her bum or back if that doesn't work and worse case scenario help her back to sleep and let her into our bed. Its tiring and I don't get much time to myself this way but she is improving and I know she'll get there with it (Currently 1hour 10 into her nap, all in the cot!). I think that, in the main, you just have to do what you think is right for you and your baby. This works for us right now.

It sounds to me like you were pretty happy with how things were going until a conversation with those other mums. So I reckon stick with what's working for you and don't worry about what others are doing. I find Lyndsey Hookwell's advice very pragmatic, empathetic and useful (she's Feed Sleep Bond on social media). She emphasises this approach of doing what works for you and your family, but offers helpful advice on how to tackle specific aspects of sleep if they do become an issue for you at any point (for example, wanting your baby to be able to nap independently).

Do what's best for you. Our 8.5 month old has been sleeping through (7pm-7am) since she was 8 weeks old. However, my friend's baby is the same age and still wakes up once in the night.

I don't agree with sleep training, I think children should know they can rely on their parents to look after them at all times of day.

Mine is only 6mo, bottle fed, but I can't see him dropping his 4 night feeds soon. Sometimes it's only 2, I have no idea why. We've introduced porridge before bed which does seem to reduce the amount of milk he drinks. He's a big fast growing baby, he eats alot. But he cosleeps so it's really not that bad, I thought I'd find the sleep deprivation alot more difficult.

I muted my fb baby group because it felt competitive, don't compare yourself to other parents, you're happy, your baby is happy.

Presumably you wouldn't leave an adult crying alone in a room, so why a baby? Sleep training is barbaric. Babies and children need warmth and security. You don't see lion cubs or baby monkeys sleeping in different caves from their mothers. They're all in together. It's natural.

I'd say do what works for you and your baby. 8 months is notorious for sleep disturbances anyway, they change to quickly at this age.

I bf both of mine and their sleep was very different. DD1 slept through from 10 weeks old, with a dream feed at 10 pm and she'd go until 7.30. I thought I was so great at being a mum.
DD2 needed feeding at 11.30 and 2.30 like clockwork until she was nearly a year old. So much for smug me. But it was only twice a night, and she definitely needed it for food - would take both sides in 20 minutes flat and go straight back down. I would say they were both good sleepers in their own way and both fully bf.

Once you hit a year, it's worth doing some sleep training using very gentle methods. I did pick up/put down with DD2 once she stopped feeding properly and started messing about at the breast. It took 3 nights and then she was going through from 10 till 7 too. Mind you, that first night I picked her up about 40 times!