To not be sleep training baby?

[Willowrose63]

Hello there!

My baby is nearly 8 months old. At night it takes about 45min to settle to sleep(combo of cuddles,nursing,crawling around our bed,singing and then we transfer her into her own cot). There's no crying and it tends to be a lovely snuggly time. She tends to wake up 3 to 4 times per night and wants to breastfeed back to sleep. There were were few occasions when she only woke once or twice but I couldn't figure out if I'd done anything different on those days. My husband has tried settling her various times but she gets more and more worked up. She did have about one month when she would nap in her cot but now has gone back to only contact napping or in pram or car. Naps total 1.5 to 2.5 hours per day. This I do find draining because it means I have no time apart from baby during the day, I do bedtimes and she only wants me(boobs) during the night. I have been feeling OK about her nighttime sleep just because it is so much better than she was for the first few months of her life and she doesn't take long to settle when she does wake up.

Met up with a couple of Mums from my mums group today and one said that her baby had woken up twice during the night TOTAL in the last 2 weeks and otherwise had slept through every night. Tbh it did take the wind out of my sails a bit. All the other mums in our nct group have done some form of sleep training/ controlled crying and rave about it. Some are saying that their babies fall asleep within 5 mins and settle themselves for naps and everything.

We had been thinking that our experience is pretty common. Feeling a bit like the odd ones out and she's our first baby so don't have any comparison.
My Mum says that breastfed babies just don't sleep well and that's the way it is.

Would love to hear others experiences!

It is illegal to sleep train in parts of Europe because it's so damaging to a baby's development.
The front of the brain is developing and with each stressful moment your child develops paths in their brain that then goes on to cause anxiety and depression in adulthood.
Babies are biologically wired to depend on their parents to settle them.
No one, not even adults sleep through the night (think midnight wee, sip of drink, going to bed late or getting up and the crack of dawn)
Like learning to talk and walk and roll over, sleeping is a developmental milestones that cannot be controlled or taught.
Western countries are renowned for their tearful children which is rare in other countries.
We refuse to trust out babies, we refuse to believe that our babies know what's best for them.
God forbid you trust mother nature over some mum in a group.
Ignore the noise. Your baby knows you and you know her the best.

@Holskey
I do not believe you've done him a disservice by trusting him to lead you.
Dependence promotes healthy adult independence.
He will achieve amazing attachments thanks to your intune loving mother skills.

@Boshmama is great at explaining things. Everything she says with bells on.

My son is 2 years old but he can't sit by himself ,he can't crawl no walking but he understands everything his bones are soft he is weak but he eats well ,what can do for him please help

My son has 2 years but he can't sit alone ,he can't crawl no walking soft bones small size, but he understands everything what can I do for him please help

You certainly aren't wrong for not sleep training.parents and babies vary and we all do what we need to do but there isn't a pattern for perfect parenting.

Mine are 7 and 5 now, but I still remember the pressure so much and the self doubt with others who has got babies to sleep through. Staying over and babysitters was a challenge, and felt very awkward, and I do remember being tired of the waking. I saw posts at the time of people with my age children and I'd think "but I can't/don't want to wait until they're 3/4 to sleep through", but I was too lazy to intervene and day by day turned into month by month and then it did just happen. And when I look back, it's been in the blink of an eye.

The only real difficulty was when I had my second. I'd tried to reduce her night time dependence on Mummy, but failed. A newborn forced my toddler to have to have Daddy for night wakes and some bedtimes. There were some pretty horrendous middle of the night tantrums (I can still remember them vividly 4 years on!), but I did what I had to, and now she still sometimes has horrendous tantrums but it's nothing to do with going to bed, she does that just fine and is about to embark on sleepovers.

You do what you are comfortable with, they are babies/toddlers for a very short period of time.

Honestly at least half these parents at groups with perfectly well behaved babies that sleep through the night are utterly bullshitting. So many people think their child should be doing it so they say they are. My eldest was 4 when he finally started sleeping through the night. Youngest well I couldn't tell you I was so used to not sleeping through I lost track.

For a baby to grow to be healthy and resilient, they NEED to have their needs met by their 'caregiver'. Babies that do not receive this do not develop the nueral pathways that allows them to know they are safe and can therefore 'self settle'.

This is from attachment parenting.org

Neuroscientific research confirms that repeated experiences of being comforted and cared for in an emotionally attuned relationship provides for a child's adaptive capacity to respond with resilience in times of stress.

Responsive and emotionally available parenting is the basis for establishing a lifetime of health and well being. Sleep training established the opposite conditions. Sleep training aims for the parents to be unavailable to the distressed child while leaving the child to cope on their own with the distress of being alone and without a caring adult to help"

All that happens is that your child learns that no one will come to help/comfort them when they are distressed, so they stop 'asking' but still have the distress.

Once children have those positive neural pathways then they will know that if needed support will come, that they are safe, their adult is near and they can then learn to self soothe.

@B1rthis in which European countries is it illegal to sleep train? How do they catch people?

@AdriannaP

You don’t need to sleep train but I am surprised a 8 month old wakes up to 4 times a night? For feeds? My HV told me from 6 months babies can sleep through the night without feeding. Woudl try and give more food and milk during the day and stop the night feeds gradually. 45mins settling seems normal to me.

I was just thinking the opposite that I can’t believe their babies only wake once in the night. All of my kids were still waking at that age for a feed. My daughter probably only once but my youngest woke 4nor 5 times. He was still having a night feed at 14 months!

@AdriannaP

You don’t need to sleep train but I am surprised a 8 month old wakes up to 4 times a night? For feeds? My HV told me from 6 months babies can sleep through the night without feeding. Woudl try and give more food and milk during the day and stop the night feeds gradually. 45mins settling seems normal to me.

Plenty of babies wake up multiple times a night for feeds. My daughter is 18 months and often wakes twice a night for feeds, and her sister was the same before her. Health visitors seem to have a lot of ideas about what babies "should" be able to do which aren't always relevant to all babies.

Do what suits you best OP, you don't have to sleep train if you're happy with the situation as it is. And those NCT mums don't need to be smug about something which is basically just luck.

And mine slept through 7-7 from ten weeks, admittedly using the dream feed method. They’re all different. I would be lying if I said I wasn’t entirely overjoyed by it though, once I’d stopped waking to check he wasn’t dead.

We did what you are doing OP. Baby’s needs led. We would have sleep trained if lack of sleep was causing us enough of an issue to be detrimental to our mental health, but we loved it. Breastfed until around 2 and some time before that night time feeds just petered out naturally. Our DC didn’t go into their own room until around 3 and slept in with us until then. One of us would use the spare room to get a better nights sleep when needed. Lots of our peers did similar. Some were baffled.

DC now is mid childhood and settles self to sleep and sleeps like a log. Self soothing skills come from experiencing soothing - not being left to cry. Controlled crying extinguishes a behaviour - crying. But crying is communication and a signal of need (security in most cases at night) so the baby learns ‘my need for security will not be met so why bother crying’. In the context of an otherwise loving and sensitive family then that’s ok. In the context of a family that gives that message all the time then that can lead to issues.

I’d never say never to sleep training though if it’s the best thing for the family. A lack of sleep can be awful for family harmony and make it harder to parent sensitively so sometimes it’s the best option. If parents are working full time it might even be necessary. We were lucky enough to have good mat leave and part time work so could cope with disturbed sleep and loved co-sleeping.

Do what feels right for you and trust your instincts.

My experience of other mums talking about baby sleep has been the opposite to most on this thread. There's almost a competitive misery about whose baby sleeps the worst, even now their 18 months. I've always kept very quiet about the fact that I have a good sleeper (he's naturally a good sleeper and I haven't sleep trained though I have always tried to put him down for naps and have occasionally let him whine in his cot if he's not too distressed).

I completely understand not wanting to sleep train but I think it is one of those areas where you need to weigh up the balance of harm. I know mums whose babies are still waking up multiple times in the night as toddlers and they are really too sleep deprived to enjoy their time with their children sometimes, plus driving round in that state which is really quite dangerous. I also think there must be some benefit to the child of getting a reasonable night's sleep. For me that would tip the balance in favour of sleep training. I don't think it's always as clear-cut as sleep training being cruel and selfish for the child and not doing so being in the child's best interest but hard on the parent.

BridgetGetTheGin

Boshmama
You can’t train a baby to sleep, it’s a biological milestone

You can teach them to stop asking for help from their parents - but that’s not the same thing. You’d just be teaching her that you don’t respond when she’s upset once the sun goes down

Trust your gut and parent how you would if you’d never read a parenting book/ listened to those who had read parenting books!

Christ. Please do not comment on this unless you're an expert in the field.

This is absolute bullshit.

Actually Bridget, I am an expert (25 years training and experience in a relevant field) and although Bosh may be didn’t express it in this post, as well as they have elsewhere, this is currently the expert position with the most credibility. Attachment theory is currently the dominant model of understanding child development as it is now backed up by a lot of neuroscience. This is where Bosh is coming from.

That said, each family is unique and sometimes ‘sleep training’ is the best option. If I had been a grumpy and insensitive parent during the day because of a lack of sleep, or if the disturbed sleep was getting in the way of my relationship with DC then I’d have considered it.

We were lucky to be able parent in an attachment focused way. It has been a privilege and I wish everyone had the same privilege, but if you are a single parent, work full time, have mental health issues, history of childhood trauma etc then this is so much harder to do. In the context of an otherwise emotionally sensitive parent child relationship then sleep training isn’t going to cause massive issues but it isn’t the best way to build a secure attachment and a secure attachment is linked to good mental/psychological health.

Hang in there. We had many moments of doubt like that but DC now settles self, can sleep out, is full of confidence and sleeps 11 hours now. You are not doing him a disservice.

Holskey - message above is to you. I can’t work out how to reply without needing to cut and paste. Technology is not my area of expertise!

My neighbours have been sleep training their 18 month old for the last six months. She cries for about 45 minutes every evening. The child is absolutely raging for the majority of this time and eventually descends into sobs. She then wakes at least twice through the night and cries for quite a long time. I can't imagine the emotional impact of going to sleep in such a fraught state night after night. I think it's an abusive way to treat a very young child.

I know it's not done these days but when mine woke they came into our bed and we all got some sleep. Bought a super king size to accommodate the four of us, although their dad usually went and got in one of their beds to get a decent night.

All kids grow out of it eventually. In what feels like five minutes your kids will be in their 30s and you'll have a massive bed to yourselves.

I've tried with and without gentle sleep training. My eldest was hideous for sleeping due to pretty severe eczema causing frequent night waking and feeds,
He always kicked off when going to bed (in own room from 6 months) so eventually we tried Baby Whisperer gentle sleep training (stroking back, pick up put down, no talking). He continued to resist sleep ( serious fomo in that baby) so we would stick a nursery rhymes cd on and pop in for a regular cuddle until he fell asleep (usually took about 20 mins). Once asleep he usually slept through, so 7:30-5:30. By 2years he'd stopped shouting when it was bedtime.
Second baby a much better sleeper so no need for training (shared room with brother from 6 months) far happier to self settle and we'd dropped the night feeds by 7 months, he slept through but took longer to go to sleep (8:30-8am).
Baby 3 would be fed to sleep at 9pm, have a midnight feed and then slept through from 12-5am between 12 and 20 weeks old, but then started waking more frequently again. We co slept, some nights would be awful with 4 wakings, others only 2. At 11 months we decided enough was enough and moved him into his own room. I slept on a mattress on the floor next to him for the first week to help him adjust, he continued to need soothing to sleep and couldn't be left happy awake. Some nights he'd wake and shout for a cuddle, but it didn't take long at all for him to start sleeping through (9:30- 6am, we've tried getting him to settle earlier but he just wont). By the time he was 18 months he could be left awake and happy to settle to sleep on his own.
All three of my boys have had different needs when it came to their sleep, two of them have been energetic sleep fighters , they were all breastfed and overall I'd say they've all been great sleepers as toddlers and older, the use or absence of sleep training made no difference to that but may have helped my eldest figure out self soothing sooner than would have happened naturally. If I had my time again I wouldn't have bothered with the sleep training at 8 months and just co-slept instead, I certainly don't think it harmed my eldest at all but it's not something I wanted to do again with my subsequent children. Please keep in mind regular waking at 8 months does not mean they'll still be doing it at 2, good luck with it all.

Goodness, there are some judgmental people on this thread.

I sleep-trained my older daughter twice - once at 8 months and then again at 18 months. At 8 months, she was waking 2-3 times a night. At 18 months she would stay awake for 2-3 hours from 1-4am ish feeding, chatting to me and crawling all over me. If I could have stayed at home with her all day, napping when she did, it might have been fine, but I had to get up for work at 5.30 and was completely exhausted.

During the sleep training, when she cried I went to her, stroked her, calmed her and comforted her. But I did not feed her and I did not pick her up. She was never left alone to cry. She did not stop crying because she had learned it was pointless. She stopped crying because I had comforted her and that allowed her to fall asleep without me being there. She was not traumatised. The process was a million miles away from what @unwashedanddazed is describing, which sounds truly horrendous.

Both times, my daughter learned to settle herself in a single night (admittedly they were long nights).

Younger daughter was always a good sleeper and didn't need sleep training at all.

YANBU. I don’t agree with sleep training.

They can rave about it all they want, but the reality is that their baby doesn’t cry simply because they have learnt it’s pointless. They have learnt nobody is coming to comfort them when they’re hungry/cold/hot/sad/just want a hug.

^ this is my belief too. None of my NCT were fans of sleep training either.

All babies are different though, just because one baby sleeps through the night another wont, they aint robots that act the same. If your baby is still not settling through a full night by say 15 months old then worry by then they should mostly be realiant on solids than breastmilk.

Sleep training, lot of absolute nonsense.

Anecdotally it is also down to parenting style. I have two groups of friends with broadly different patenting styles and different experiences of sleep/ sleep training.

Group 1: all babies weaned from breaatmilk before 1 year or never breastfed, use nurseries, had strict routine, did sleep training, all babies slept through early (before age 1)

Group 2 all exclusively breastfed, mainly stay at home mums or very part time, baby led / loose routine, no sleep training, all babies were "difficult" sleepers

I feel like the first group managed to train their babies to fit in with their lives whereas the second Group had to fit their lives around the babies. I don't think it can be a coincidence that the quite different parenting styles lead to different results. Obviously there will be some who don't fit this pattern.

I’m not actually convinced sleep training works.

Mine is coming up to ten months and is getting better. Our big problem is when he wakes I can’t get him back in his cot. Frigging nightmare!

My NCT group are all winging it massively

As am I!