To not be sleep training baby?

[Willowrose63]

Hello there!

My baby is nearly 8 months old. At night it takes about 45min to settle to sleep(combo of cuddles,nursing,crawling around our bed,singing and then we transfer her into her own cot). There's no crying and it tends to be a lovely snuggly time. She tends to wake up 3 to 4 times per night and wants to breastfeed back to sleep. There were were few occasions when she only woke once or twice but I couldn't figure out if I'd done anything different on those days. My husband has tried settling her various times but she gets more and more worked up. She did have about one month when she would nap in her cot but now has gone back to only contact napping or in pram or car. Naps total 1.5 to 2.5 hours per day. This I do find draining because it means I have no time apart from baby during the day, I do bedtimes and she only wants me(boobs) during the night. I have been feeling OK about her nighttime sleep just because it is so much better than she was for the first few months of her life and she doesn't take long to settle when she does wake up.

Met up with a couple of Mums from my mums group today and one said that her baby had woken up twice during the night TOTAL in the last 2 weeks and otherwise had slept through every night. Tbh it did take the wind out of my sails a bit. All the other mums in our nct group have done some form of sleep training/ controlled crying and rave about it. Some are saying that their babies fall asleep within 5 mins and settle themselves for naps and everything.

We had been thinking that our experience is pretty common. Feeling a bit like the odd ones out and she's our first baby so don't have any comparison.
My Mum says that breastfed babies just don't sleep well and that's the way it is.

Would love to hear others experiences!

Your mum is right.

I never sleep trained and my dc are fine, and slept through in their own time. I don't regret it.

Also, other parents don't always tell the truth about baby's sleep, like having a sleeping baby is some mark of accomplishment.

Also this:

One study revealed that a greater number of awakenings after sleep onset measured via sleep actigraphy recordings amongst 10-month-old infants were negatively correlated with the scores of the Bayley Scales of Infant and Toddler Development second edition (BSID-II) Mental Development Index (MDI) [53]. Gibson et al. [54] also found that 11- to 13-month-old infants who had either greater sleep efficiency or longer proportions of sleep at night measured by sleep actigraphy data were associated with better cognitive problem-solving skills as measured by the Ages and Stages Questionnaire.

www.karger.com/Article/Fulltext/508055

Sleep training wasn't for me. I now have a 9 year old who doesn't settle well and still occasionally wakes in the night! But even if I'd known this is how things would be years down the line, I still wouldn't have been able to do it! She used to get so distressed so quickly, it would have been awful.

They're all different of course, maybe if she was the type of baby to just have a little fuss and cry we might have done things differently.

I did sleep training with both of mine at 10 months or so to save my sanity. Worked very well w 1, less so with the other (though his sleep did improve somewhat).

Now in their teens and both seem remarkably unbroken by it. If it taught them that their needs wouldnt be met then that's a lesdon they forgot very quickly. Certainly had no problem articulating their needs and wants since.

Ultimately you do as you please OP but dont get taken in by all the hype. Its not a universal panacea, nor does accepting your baby's waking schedule for years make you a better mum.

OP, are you on the Facebook group The Beyond Sleep Training Project? If not come and have a look, it sounds right up your street

You don’t need to sleep train but I am surprised a 8 month old wakes up to 4 times a night? For feeds? My HV told me from 6 months babies can sleep through the night without feeding. Woudl try and give more food and milk during the day and stop the night feeds gradually.

@AdriannaP Infant sleep isn't linear (it doesn't just always get better over time, it can have periods of getting worse too) and there is a major developmental leap at 8-10 months which can result in multiple night wakings. So it's sort of nonsense for the HV to say that "from 6 months babies can sleep through the night without feeding" - from a nutritional perspective possibly (although given that advice is not to start solids until the same time I'm not sure how many babies actually would be capable of filling up on enough milk throughout the day) but feeding, especially breastfeeding, at nighttime isn't just for food, a large part of it will be for comfort (the breast milk produced at night has a higher level of certain hormones in it that actually help babies sleep, turns out my boobs are clever than I am ). Obviously a six month old should be offered frequent access to milk and a good selection of solid foods during the day but assuming they've only just started weaning there won't be a great intake of calories from it and their tummies are still so little they may need to continue milk feeds overnight (aside from any other need for milk in the night, like as a comfort feed to help get back to sleep during a leap or prior to being able to link sleep cycles independently every single time).

Remember the statistic: 100% of babies that are fed to sleep eventually learn to go to sleep without milk

I wouldn’t/couldn’t do anything that feels instinctively wrong with my children and sleep training fits in that category for me. I appreciate though how it’s very easy to lose or question your instincts after becoming a parent.
My eldest was a poor sleeping so we co slept a and muddled through, around age 3 he really settled down. My youngest has been a great sleeper from day 1. Both breastfed and co-sleeping. No two babies are the same and comparing only ever makes you feel bad!

Hi
Can totally relate to your experience. My daughter as a baby would only sleep whilst being held or in the car or pram (pram only if it was moving !). In the first few months I used to sleep propped up with her in my arms then as she got older I could lie her next to me we co slept from day 1 as it was the only way to get any sleep. Nap time was either me walking her in the pram but I got no rest .So I decided nap time I would sit down ,netflix on , baby on boob . It gave me time to rest and looking back those times were so precious. She eventually gave up any kind of breastfeeding at 3 and sleeps through the night no probs . I never did any sleep training I just didn't have the will power for it .But I can honestly say I dont regret a single minute , The time goes so fast and I have lovely memories of snuggling up with my baby and having a decent amount of sleep once I stopped stressing the small stuff . I also managed to watch loads of great films and box sets . Please do what's right for you and your baby ,dont worry what others are doing there will always be someone whose baby sleeps the night at 1 week old blah blah. Enjoy these baby years . My daughters 7 now and a great sleeper .

14 month old DS, we still bed share and Bf to sleep and through night. Some phases he sleeps until 4am. Some phases he wakes at 1 and 4. Other times, he's up every hour. It's a rollercoaster and I've learned to just accept it. But it can be absolutely draining. We had three teeth come in, then a sleep regression and after 2 weeks of waking every hour / 90 minutes, I was finally getting some relief but he's managed to pick up a snotty nose and keeps waking up crying cause he can't sleep.
But at the end of the day, I know I'm doing the best thing for my son...I don't agree with any kind of sleep training. I find it cruel.

Didn’t with our first but she was over 3 years before she settled herself and went through the night. That was fine though, because we were both home.
With our second, I had to because my husband had to work away from home on weekdays and with multiple wakes during the night I was soon pretty exhausted (was nearly 40 when we had him which physically probably didn’t help).
Felt like Cruella d’Evil but on the 4th night he went off within 10 minutes (just shy of 7 months). Woke an average of once for feeds and settled again quickly. Within a couple of weeks he was actually smiling and chatting to himself as I left the room.
Neither was right nor wrong. Do what feels right for you, in your particular circumstances.

OP just do what works for you. Sleep training is such an emotive issue (as you can see from the range of views here) but you know your baby best.
I too found that breastfeeding my DS meant that he was waking more during the night wanting milk compared to friends who were formula feeding. I found that sleep training was useful in helping him settle at the start of the night, it also meant that we were able to give him the opportunity to self settle during the night. Obviously if he wasn't able to do this then I knew that he needed me either for milk or for a cuddle. I found that at 18 months he slept through without needing milk to settle. I actually miss some of those night feeds now, it was lovely having cuddly time just the two of us.

We’re four months in with a baby who will only contact nap and would prefer to sleep on me all night if I let them. I don’t plan on sleep training, I’ve seen some friends pay a lot of money for some piss-poor advice, and while that probably isn’t universal it’s put me off.

I think our culture is uniquely obsessed with baby sleep, and particularly getting their sleep to fit around our modern lives. Breast milk releases sleepy hormones for both mum and baby, which makes me think we should probably nap when they do while the rest of the tribe takes care of everything else! Unfortunately the nuclear family set-up doesn’t support that. Parents having to sleep train so they can be rested for work presumably wasn’t a problem pre-capitalism!

I have found that people who sleep train really rave about the good nights, but when pressed they still have bad ones! Anyway, don’t feel bad. What you’re doing is working for you and that’s all that matters, but I don’t think you’re in the minority. I feel more judged when I tell people I cosleep!

Do what's right for you and your baby, OP, but equally, don't be bullied by the 'sleep training is evil' brigade.

Sleep training is fine.

Not sleep training is fine.

Be confident in who you are and what you are comfortable with.

I loved having babies and always felt like a very instinctive parent and for me, that meant teaching my DC to self settle and encourage healthy sleep habits from an early age. Being instinctive doesn't mean utter self sacrifice. You matter as well as your DC.

I have three very happy, loving children and they were all self settling in their own rooms by 6m and that was absolutely right for us as a family.

For others it would not be right.

Just go with what feels right for you and ignore everyone else. But don't demonise other people for sleep training simply because it's not what you want to do!

Lots of defensive reactions here re sleep training (mainly from people who are a bit ott) - and some misinformed about what sleep training actually is..
I did a gentle form of sleep training with one, wasn’t needed with the other because I encouraged independent sleep a bit more from the start, just from previous experience. The studies re stress indicators was also based on babies who were orphans and no long term impacts beyond the initial stress level was found..and the stress level is the same as whenever a baby would cry- even from overtiredness.

Whenever I chat about this, I always say it’s down to the mother’s preference- you will know if you’re ready to do it or not. And doing it or not does not define you as a mother.

Mine were both breastfed and did sleep through 7-7 from about 6m- occasional wakening, but every few weeks. But I moulded this for myself, because I needed it. You might not. If you’re happy with what you’re doing, just keep doing it.

Maybe try and give a bottle for the bedtime feed. Breastfed babies do wake several times a night

@Nannylp yes cuddly time is lovely!

Alot of the time I love it and other days I'm tired and a but touched out. I remember reading online(on a desperate middle of the night googling sesh) that babies had to be taught/trained how to get to sleep by themselves. I guess I was getting a bit concerned that she is still waking and wanting to feed to settle because we hadn't taught her otherwise. Also I'll be going back to work when she's around 14months and I do days and nights. So she will need another way to settle back to sleep if I'm not there.

You should do whatever you think is best for your baby and your family. We tried no sleep training but eventually gave in because it was becoming utterly unsustainable. Worked for us and she’s now much better - not perfect but usually only one wake-up every night, and very easy to get back to sleep, which is manageable for us. Wouldn’t work for everyone though, there’s no right or wrongs.

I would like to mention if you are tired from interrupted sleep have you considered your dc will be also? The difference in my dc having got them sleeping all night was mammoth!!

[quote Gingerbreadstars]Also this:

One study revealed that a greater number of awakenings after sleep onset measured via sleep actigraphy recordings amongst 10-month-old infants were negatively correlated with the scores of the Bayley Scales of Infant and Toddler Development second edition (BSID-II) Mental Development Index (MDI) [53]. Gibson et al. [54] also found that 11- to 13-month-old infants who had either greater sleep efficiency or longer proportions of sleep at night measured by sleep actigraphy data were associated with better cognitive problem-solving skills as measured by the Ages and Stages Questionnaire.

www.karger.com/Article/Fulltext/508055[/quote]
Some great peer reviewed evidence there... sponsored by the Nestle Nutrition Institute... I wonder why they might have a vested financial interest in supporting such literature... ? Very enlightening.

The thing is OP it doesn't have to be all or nothing.

So many MNetters seem to think it's either BF till they're four and accept they will wake every 45 minutes and THAT IS FINE AND YOU MUST JUST LEARN TO ENJOY IT, or do extremist sleep training WHICH WILL OF COURSE DAMAGE THEM FOREVER.

The reality is that the vast, vast majority of us fall much more in the middle of the two extremes and we all eventually find a solution that works for our families.

Just don't be bullied into doing something that doesn't feel right for you and your family. But equally, accept that it might feel right for others.

No right or wrong, but don't demonise and assume you're a superior parent for not sleep training: you're not.

All babies are different. First baby was up 3/4 times a night for his bottle - upto nearly 18 months. At that point we might weaned instead and that helped him start to sleep through. No milk, no wakings and plus he ate much better too not waking up with a stomach full of milk.

This baby - mostly slept through since about 12 weeks. Done all the things they say not too - mainly cuddling to sleep.

If you are happy with your baby and their sleep then ignore them. If you are broken and exhausted it is also fine to sleep train

I hate the judgement against people who make some effort to get their babies sleeping..when one of mine was 7 months I was weeping with stress at his constant waking

I did sleep training and it worked very very quickly. I would say it was gentle we just tried not to pick him up but would sooth him and he did start falling asleep quicker and not waking.

Please stop.judging mums who are keen to get a bit more sleep ! Obviously if you are fine yoi keep on doing what works for you. I also think night waking are normal at 8 months though honestly an 8 month old doesn't need 4 feeds a night. But they also feed for love and comfort which is totally fine !

Yanbu. I could never bear the idea of controlled crying. It goes against every maternal instinct to leave your baby crying, I simply wouldn’t do it.

My (10mo) baby’s sleep has improved enormously over the last couple of months by us helping him learn to fall asleep in his cot on his own. We have never once left him to cry, but we’ve very gradually helped him settle in the cot by sitting in it with him, patting his back, stroking his face etc. He still wakes at least once most nights, but that is miles better than he was. He also naps really well in his cot now. A couple of months ago he would only contact nap or nap in the car.

Sleep training isn’t necessary imo, and you need to keep doing it over and over anyway. If what you’re doing works for you there’s nothing at all wrong with continuing.

My first was a terrible sleeper-multiple wakes, would only contact nap etc. Tried sleep training a couple of times when she was about 8 months and it broke my heart to watch her crying for her mummy. I embraced co-sleeping and despite the multiple wakes we managed ok.

She’s coming up to 4 now and still wakes in the night. She’ll settle in her bed if we lay next to her but almost always wakes and finds one of us at some point in the night. It’s the way she was born. I love the snuggles and as long as she needs that closeness and reassurance I’m happy to give it. I hate the idea of her feeling scared and alone.

I now have 5m old twins. Youngest twin is an active baby, a challenge again at night, but he is formula fed and has a dummy. The oldest twin is a textbook unicorn baby, can sleep through for 10 hours with just brief wakes for feeds. They are being raised exactly the same. If either or both need to co-sleep in the future I’ll let them, provided it’s safe.

All babies are different. All families are different. I’ve found that mums are really quick to talk about the good nights but won’t admit they have bad days. Some babies will respond well to sleep training, others won’t. Some babies and children really need lots of cuddles. Others don’t. Some babies need lots of sleep, others much less.

If sleep training isn’t right for you, then please don’t feel peer pressured into doing it. If you can handle the nights wakings then embrace the cuddles, they won’t want them forever!

Your experience is not unusual but equally I wouldnt say its that common. DS slept 7 til 7 in his own cot from about 16 weeks, despite being EBF. He was always quite easy to settle. DD was down to one feed at night by 6m and none by 8/9m, but definitely wouldn't have still been waking 4 times a night, although she's a worse sleeper than DS (she still at age 2 regularly, almost habitually, has a litle fuss at 10.30 -11pm but is quick to resettle.

They both go down awake and I just leave the room.

Sleep Training doesn't have to mean leaving to cry alone .
I don't know why people assume that's all it is