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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

"Only women have cervixes"...

141 replies

Yetano · 01/10/2021 13:30

So, I was as pissed off as most and thought Fuck off Starmer, how the hell do they make someone a cervix? etc, especially after the outrageous "bodies with vaginas" article. However...

Have just been reading that the whole argument originated with Trans men not being able to get cervical smears and people ending up having to have a colcoscopy due to delays in screening.

Trans men, do, of course start with a cervix, and presumably retain one. Apparently, the computer systems make it difficult or impossible to book a smear.

I've often thought that Trans men get a raw deal in the whole trans debate. It mostly seems to be centred around trans women's wants and needs and that this is yet another example of women, or in this case, former women's needs being sidelined and not heard.

OP posts:
lachy · 01/10/2021 18:48

some women don't know they are 'cervix havers' so could well not realise that they need a smear

Excuse my ignorance...how can any woman not know this? It is basic biology is it not?

Trans Men surely know that they have female biology - including their reproductive and sexual organs, just as Trans Women know that their biology is male?

Our outward appearance can be changed, but our biology cannot. A female pelvis will always be different to a male pelvis. Trans Men are not at risk of prostate cancer, trans women are not at risk from cervical cancer.

Biology tells us that women have cervixes. Your biological sex is crucial information in accessing the correct health care.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 01/10/2021 18:59

As has been said many, many times... Low literacy levels, low education levels, English as 2nd, 3rd language. All sorts of reasons but a recent poll suggested that 40% of wen inthe UK don't know what a cervix is.

Which is why women who do are objecting to the 'inclusive' wording that manages to include, comfort, assuage what, 0.6% of women, same again of men? Whilst simultaneously excluding 40% of the very people in need... Women!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 01/10/2021 18:59

My apologies, almost 50%!

lachy · 01/10/2021 19:00

@ShrillSiren

The survey, commissioned by INTIMINA and conducted by OnePoll, asked American respondents what the menstrual cycle was in their own words

Thank you for the link. Interesting to read. I wonder if the results would be different if conducted in the UK?

MumW · 01/10/2021 19:00

Let me just say I have no issue with genuine trans-wo/men. It's self-identication that makes me uncomfortable.

However, I have long thought that self-identifying trans-women seem to be the most vocal/controversial and suspect that there is an element of "women have moved towards more equality so (certain) men have found another way to assert their 'superiority ' "

CuriousaboutSamphire · 01/10/2021 19:03

Start here Lachy. I'm on my phone, it's a bit long-winded posting links

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40444170.amp

pigsDOfly · 01/10/2021 19:11

It makes no sense for the NHS to allow people to change their sex markers in matters medical.

It's the NHS, an organisation, that must surely have knowledge of biology and must therefore know full well that no one is capable of changing their sex despite what many people want to believe.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/10/2021 19:13

Excuse my ignorance...how can any woman not know this? It is basic biology is it not?

Were you born knowing you had a skeleton, a brain, or islets of Langerhans in your pancreas?

I'm going to take a punt on it that the answer is no. Knowledge that you have a uterus and it connects to the vagina, and the connection point is called a cervix is knowledge you acquired.

How many opportunities did you have to acquire it? Was female anatomy covered in detail on a weekly basis, at your school in all attainment streams? Or w2as it more of a one-off thing? What if someone had been off that week?

Realistically, reminding teenagers of cervix placement can't be high priority learning through years 9 and 11. There is so much else to do, and children are still leaving school unable to read. I know this, because I saw it first-hand. (I went to a school with a very high rate of illiteracy due to my own (slightly different) unique educational needs!)

The default person, including when we talk about people with learning disabilities, is male. But women have learning disabilities too. There is also the issue of acquired cognitive disabilities. We are all one incident of bad luck away from an accident that causes irreversible brain injuries, and if the only thing you lose is your knowledge of internal biology, you'll be lucky.

extract

In England, adult literacy is often referred to in terms of ‘levels’ – for example, a 2011 government survey of adult literacy skills found that 14.9% (or 1 in 7) of adults in England have literacy levels at or below Entry Level 3, which is equivalent to the literacy skills expected of a nine to 11-year-old.

More recently, in 2015, the OECD conducted itsSurvey of Adult Skills, known as PIAAC (Programme for the International Assessment of Adult Competencies). This survey found that 16.4% (or 1 in 6) of adults in England, and 17.9% (or 1 in 5) adults in Northern Ireland, have literacy levels at or below Level 1, which is considered to be 'very poor literacy skills'.

(Continues)

Entry Level 3is equivalent to literacy levels at age 9-11. Adults with skills below Entry Level 3 may not be able to understand labels on pre-packaged food or understand household bills.Level 1is equivalent to GCSE grades D-G. Adults with skills below Level 1 may not be able to read bus or train timetables or understand their pay slip.

From: literacytrust.org.uk/parents-and-families/adult-literacy/what-do-adult-literacy-levels-mean/

TheWeeDonkey · 01/10/2021 19:32

@pigsDOfly

It makes no sense for the NHS to allow people to change their sex markers in matters medical.

It's the NHS, an organisation, that must surely have knowledge of biology and must therefore know full well that no one is capable of changing their sex despite what many people want to believe.

I don't understand either. Buck Angel is a prominent transman who has spoken very honestly about the damage testosterone does to female reproductive system. This is really important and another reason why it is essential to be honest and open about biology when it comes to your health.
MummBraTheEverLeaking · 01/10/2021 19:40

@AngeloMysterioso

Let’s be honest- the reason TRAs have an issue with the phrase “only women have a cervix” is because it means those with male anatomy (ie transwomen) are not considered to be women. Concern for the welfare of transmen is very much secondary to that point.
This, right here.

This is why women are bodies with vaginas in the Lancet and men in the Lancet are, well, men. This is why we're menstruators but Prostate Cancer adverts tagline is Men, we are with you. As far as I'm aware no one is up in arms about that.

Can you imagine the uproar if there were ads on the telly about Ovarian cancer with the tagline, Women, we are with you. Fuck me, twitter would explode with all the mouth frothing, calls for banning the ad, heads to roll, apologies to be made.

If you change your SEX marker, the onus should be on you to sort out your healthcare. The NHS has bigger fish to fry than to tippytoe around and make sure your gender has to be validated first. You have a cervix to swab, the same as every other cervix to swab that was or will ever be. Job done.

But I'm not kidding myself that all the activists have worked themselves up over the plight of healthcare in transmen. This has been latched onto because there is a directed effort to remove anything that links the word woman to anything uniquely female. Because there are males who say they too are women, and this upsets them. And further down the line, we can't say female either because it's too triggering for the transmen and non binaries, so guess who gets to claim the word female then Hmm

FrankButchersDickieBow · 01/10/2021 19:48

@ProfessorInkling

If a transman, who was not called for a smear, phoned the surgery and booked it, they'd do it. So if you're going to take on the responsibility of having changed your sex marker with the NHS, perhaps you could also bear the responsibility of getting the health checks relevant to your biology.
100%

It's not the NHS's fault.

I also recall a story where a transman was given the incorrect dosage of medication, which nearly killed them.

It was not on their records that they were trans and biologically female and they were saying that healthcare for trans people was appalling.

Well disclose your biology and you will be treated accordingly!

limitedperiodonly · 01/10/2021 19:49

I dearly want Wayne Couzens the police officer who abducted, raped, murdered and desecrated Sarah Everard to identify as a woman and request a transfer to a women's prison and for Sir Keir "that's not right" Starmer and Shadow Justice Secretary David "dinosaurs hoarding rights" Lammy to explain their position on this. I don't have it in for Labour - Lib Dem, Green and SNP politicians are the same. It's just that I used to vote Labour.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/10/2021 19:52

After Joe Biden's successful electoral win, a transwoman tweeted him, asking if women's healthcare could be called something else, saying the term was inaccurate as "I'm a woman and I don't use them"

elodie77 · 01/10/2021 19:53

I used both examples of the bullying I received for giving a different opinion to the 'received' one here about trans right (and other quite personal things actually) and the abuse the black women got on the braids thread to illustrate that there are quite abusive mobs here on MN who use cheap, bullying tactics to shout down people don't agree with them. I think it gets to the point that people can no longer come here expressing a different viewpoint because they get childish abuse. You should be able to debate in a civilised manner.

I can accept anger and humour but not bullying. I think MN is becoming an echo chamber on many issues and I think the critique I shared on white feminism is quite apt.

lachy · 01/10/2021 19:54

@ShrillSiren, @CuriousaboutSamphire & @PurgatoryOfPotholes

Thank you for the info. I'm ashamed to say that this is an area I know very little about, but an area I want my daughter to be educated about.

She is still only very young, but at 5 years old, she has recently started asking interesting questions and I want to be able to answer her.

womaninatightspot · 01/10/2021 20:03

I think that all systems should be updated to record sex and gender. Prisons/ police/schools/hospitals it'd make for much better statistical analysis. I don't know how we can support the people who need it most when we simply don't record the relevant information.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/10/2021 20:03

Here's a critique of the term "white feminism".

extract

When I was in grad school, I got into a heated debate with a classmate who insisted that “white feminism” was a serious problem in the women’s movement. The man (who was white and from the United States) argued that, “white feminism” meant that the women’s movement had centered the lives and experiences of only a select few — privileged white women in the US who traveled mainly in academic circles — “for most of its history.”

I told him I thought the term functioned as a tool to dismiss second wave feminists, glorify the (very problematic) third wave, and encourage infighting among feminists, creating divisions in a movement where collective struggle is crucial. His claim was at odds with the grassroots movement I’d grown up with in the Dominican Republic, which was obviously not led by women in the US (and certainly not by upper-class white women or academics). There are legitimate problems within feminism in my home country, particularly around class difference, but there is far more solidarity than animosity, and Dominican feminism has been consistent in addressing the struggles of rural, working class, and immigrant women.

Notably, during my time as an immigrant in the US, most of the people who complained to me about what they called “white feminism” were white themselves. I felt tokenized; like they wanted me, as a Dominican woman of colour, to validate them and their feminism. I became suspicious of all white people who used the term. Criticizing “white feminism” seemed to be a way for white people to present themselves asdifferent, betterwhite people — as cool, “intersectional” feminists who just happen to be white.

Now that I am back in the Dominican Republic doing shelter work, I believe my friend from grad school was right about one thing: white feminism is real. It is epitomized by gender identity ideology.

The current trend among third wavers, as well as among progressives, is to argue that we can ignore whether people were born male or female and insteaduse language like“genderfluid,” “multi-gender,” or “genderqueer.” But there’s a massive gap between this language — popularized within Gender Studies classrooms in the West — and the realities of marginalized women in countries like mine.

I’ve been thinking about what gender identity means in the context of the Global South. What does gender identity mean for women and girls who look like me? What does it mean for Dominican women and girls who are marginalized not just by sex, but by poverty, race, and xenophobia?

Recently, the Dominican Republic has been debating whether or not tooutlawchild marriage. The country hasthe highest rateof child marriage in the Latin American and Caribbean region. According to a2014 survey, 37 per cent of women who are between 20 and 49 years old got married (or became common law partners) before they were 18. The survey also shows that one in five girls between 15 and 19 are in a relationship with a man who is at least 10 years their senior. There is a strong correlation between child marriage and teen pregnancy, which can result indangerous health complicationsfor girls, like blood poisoning, obstructed labour, andhigh blood pressure. Indeed, teen pregnancy is thenumber one cause of deathfor teen girls worldwide. This is particularly worrisome because the Dominican Republic prohibitsall abortion, even in the cases when the mother’s life is in danger.

Plan International, a children’s rights organization,published a studyin March, looking at child marriage on the south side of the Caribbean island. They interviewed men who married underage girls, as well as the girls who “chose” these marriages. Almost 40 per cent ofthe men interviewedsaid they preferred younger girls because they were “more obedient and easier to control.” The study also revealed that many girls marry older men hoping to escape family violence and poverty, but then face violence from these men once they are married. One 15-year-old girl who was interviewed for the study said:

“I got married because I needed to run away from home. They were beating me. They used sticks. They wouldn’t trust me. One day I said: ‘I don’t want to live like this anymore.’ At home, there was a lot of fighting, one day in front of everybody, they beat me, in the middle of the street. So, I started working at a household. I was 11 years old. It was even worse there, the violence increased. I had to do all the chores, including washing all the clothes by hand. They wouldn’t even let me go to school and they never paid me because they said that they already gave me food. I was suffering a lot. I felt imprisoned I couldn’t even go to the park. I wanted to get married to leave all of that. I thought that if I got married I was going to be in a calm house, that I would be able to eat, sleep and go out. I didn’t know it wouldn’t be like that, like another hell.”

In the Dominican Republic, boys are not expected to clean or help raise their siblings — that is the responsibility of girls. Prior to marriage, 78 per cent of the girls who participated in thePlan Internationalstudy said they were put in charge of doing household chores like cleaning and caring for their younger siblings. When girls were asked what it means to be a woman, most said that it meant being a mother and a wife.

Continues: dgrnewsservice.org/civilization/patriarchy/gender/white-feminism-thing-gender-identity-ideology-epitomizes/

AlfonsoTheDinosaur · 01/10/2021 20:09

@elodie77

I used both examples of the bullying I received for giving a different opinion to the 'received' one here about trans right (and other quite personal things actually) and the abuse the black women got on the braids thread to illustrate that there are quite abusive mobs here on MN who use cheap, bullying tactics to shout down people don't agree with them. I think it gets to the point that people can no longer come here expressing a different viewpoint because they get childish abuse. You should be able to debate in a civilised manner.

I can accept anger and humour but not bullying. I think MN is becoming an echo chamber on many issues and I think the critique I shared on white feminism is quite apt.

This is not about white feminism. Posts that attempt to derail the thread are not appreciated. This is the second post that tries to do that and it is not welcome.
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/10/2021 20:11

And this is from Bina Shah, a feminist from Pakistan.

extract

Yesterday on Twitter, I wrote an angry tweet. It went like this:

“I just really need to know how Judith Butler’s definition of women applies to Afghan women who are being beaten on the streets by the Taliban. Have you ever considered that your academics really don’t fit the lives of women in the global South?”

I posted the above tweet after reading about the now infamous Guardian interview in which Butler said that TERFs (trans exclusionary radical feminists) align themselves with right wingers and fascists. I don’t identify as a TERF, or much of anything really (cis? that too feels like an imposition upon me) because this debate about trans rights and gender identity seems so far removed from the lived reality that I and millions of women in the South Asian/Central Asian region experience. I certainly don’t align myself with right wingers and fascists in my thinking, which is different and far more independent from the groupthink or pressure that people in, say, an academic environment face as they adapt to new rules and laws about gender.

But it was Judith Butler’s statement that “we need to rethink the category of women” that got me going. It coalesced from quite a lot of thinking I’ve been doing about gender identity theory as it is being adopted in Western countries. And it comes at the same time as I’ve been watching Afghan women getting beaten by the Taliban as they protest for their rights, for safety and security and for inclusion in the government, and for the freedom to work and study.

I was asked to clarify my thinking about my statement, because it seemed vague or perhaps obtuse to people for whom gender identity theory is far more familiar and agreeable. It’s good to be challenged because it forces you to think harder about what it is you really believe.

In Afghanistan (extreme example) but also in Pakistan, where I live, in India, in Nepal, Bangladesh, Middle Eastern countries, North Africa, women (or people with female bodies) are being abused, harassed, assaulted and killed not just because they have female bodies, but because they refuse to hand those bodies over to men to do with as they please.

Because this possession and ownership of female bodies is absolutely tied to female biology and the production of children and sexual comfort for those men, separating sex from gender completely negates this form of oppression which is hugely insulting to all of us who are still fighting to end sex-based discrimination in our countries and regions.

At the same time a particularly empowering thing for women is the fact that their bodies are capable of producing life. This is something so innate to women’s identities and sense of themselves in Muslim/global South/non-white countries that to insist it is something that does not belong to them is actually a form of mental and emotional violence on them, a double trauma visited upon them by Western Feminists who wish to impose their ideas of gender and sex onthose of us whose understanding and experience of these issues is very different.

Imagine a Muslim woman in the UK who escapes a violent marriage and threats of honor killing. She goes to a shelter where she feels safe because it is a female-only space. Not just because she is away from the realm of immediate male violence, but because as a Muslim woman she does not feel comfortable sharing intimate quarters with a person with a male body. This allows her to reconcile her awful situation as well as her need to feel she is acting in congruence with her identity and principles of modesty as a Muslim woman.

But if a trans woman with a penis is in the same space, then the Muslim woman will be in a terrible conflict about her actions in leaving her home. Suddenly, she is not able to remove her hijab or undress because she cannot do those things in front of a person with a male body who is not a family member. This not a hypothetical, there areMuslim, Sikh, and Hindu women who are now excluded from single sex-only spacesbecause the definition of woman has changed to include women with penises. To call that Muslim woman a TERF because she expresses discomfort is yet another abuse for her.

All this to say that we have yet to negotiate safety and freedom for women with female bodies and not ignore or override minority women in the West or women from my part of the world out of these negotiations. Afghan girls and women have in fact had to disguise themselves as boys and men in order to move outside the home, earn a living or perform vital chores during the rule of the Taliban. Would this be called “performing gender” as Judith Butler calls it, or a resourceful survival strategy that Afghan women adopted in order to be able to live?

I’m afraid the trans rights activists are acting like Western colonisers and imperialists all over again, imposing their ideas of gender and sexuality on us the same way their Empire was imposed on us for a good part of the 20th century. I don’t really want gender colonialism in the 21st century. Do you?

Thank you for coming to my TERF Talk.

From: thefeministani.wordpress.com/2021/09/09/judith-butler-and-afghan-women

elodie77 · 01/10/2021 20:12

This is not about white feminism. Posts that attempt to derail the thread are not appreciated. This is the second post that tries to do that and it is not welcome.

Are you trying to silence me? This is what I mean, that many people here appoint themselves an authority on topics of discussion or threads!

I have not tried to derail anything, I engaged with the issue and the tone of the OP and used another example that struck me from another thread and was criticised for it so I explained why I had used the second example.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/10/2021 20:13

This is not about white feminism. Posts that attempt to derail the thread are not appreciated. This is the second post that tries to do that and it is not welcome.

You're quite right. I shouldn't be fuelling the derail.

Blush
CuriousaboutSamphire · 01/10/2021 20:27

Aye! None so blind, and all that!

elodie77 · 01/10/2021 20:29

Yes, PurgatoryOfPotholes, and there was another good one in the Guardian the other day saying that criticism of white feminism played into the hands of men and patriarchy, which I do agree with in that we shouldn't fight with each other while men get away with so much, but...I have found it disturbing that it seems to be impossible to express differing viewpoints to the 'received opinions' here without abuse, and have been taken aback by the astoundingly small-minded, bigoted insults about trans people, or the shouting down of black women I saw earlier today. I also received persistent, unpleasant hounding on another thread because I disclosed some of my personal life choices.

AlfonsoTheDinosaur · 01/10/2021 20:32

The conversation about only women having cervixes is interesting, isn't it?

Swipe left for the next trending thread