"Only women have cervixes"...

[Yetano]

So, I was as pissed off as most and thought Fuck off Starmer, how the hell do they make someone a cervix? etc, especially after the outrageous "bodies with vaginas" article. However...

Have just been reading that the whole argument originated with Trans men not being able to get cervical smears and people ending up having to have a colcoscopy due to delays in screening.

Trans men, do, of course start with a cervix, and presumably retain one. Apparently, the computer systems make it difficult or impossible to book a smear.

I've often thought that Trans men get a raw deal in the whole trans debate. It mostly seems to be centred around trans women's wants and needs and that this is yet another example of women, or in this case, former women's needs being sidelined and not heard.

@elodie77

Can you elaborate on this section? Which rights need to be expanded?

For example to make it easier for trans men to get a cervical smear as mentioned in the OP.

You mean as in the options suggested in quite a few posts here, and across similar threads?

Maybe read what has actually been posted rather than arriving with a preconceived idea and slapping down whatever it was you had to say, without reading anything

It'll make you seem less daft, for a start!

Well they're hardly "former women" are they. What with humans not being able to change sex and all.
But otherwise, the emphasis on men is not a surprise, surely.

Although I don't bnother with smear tests so I doubt it is a big deal for the very few people who are transmen (ex women)

Not giving transgender people healthcare appropriate to their physiology = “transphobic”

Giving transgender people healthcare appropriate to their physiology = also “transphobic”

@elodie77 by saying its "just silly" that some women don't know they have cervixes you are merely demonstrating your own privilege and ignorance. As I said upthread, the Economist has reported in the last few days that 40% of women do not know what a cervix is.

The problem is that transmen will change their gender marker with the NHS. There is no sex marker. Those recorded as men are not called for smears - that bit is common sense. Rather than force 51% of the population to be referred to as “people with cervices” the NHS could add a biological sex marker to the record system. That would also avoid trans women being called for smears they don’t need (for “validation” or anything else).

This. The NHS simply need to record accurate, factual biological information. Eg whether you are XX, XY, XXY etc.

CuriousaboutSamphire

You seem to accuse me of your own failings which is the usual style of those who have poor debating skills!

Logic, research and humour my arse!

I was going to argue with you @AngeloMysterioso, but then the picture showed up.

Bloody idiots - which is part of what so very many people have been saying for years!

Ooh! I got snarked! 😝

Marguerite2000
The NHS should never have agreed to change the sex marker on medical records. Absolutely ridiculous.

What's most worrying is that this will be changed on transitioning children's records.

by saying its "just silly" that some women don't know they have cervixes you are merely demonstrating your own privilege and ignorance. As I said upthread, the Economist has reported in the last few days that 40% of women do not know what a cervix is.

That's not what I said. I meant that it's very unlikely that the NHS would devise a system whereby women would miss out on smear tests because of they didn't understand the terminology. Just the usual hysterical style on this issue.

It is people like this who cannot cope with anyone having a different opinion.

Let’s be honest- the reason TRAs have an issue with the phrase “only women have a cervix” is because it means those with male anatomy (ie transwomen) are not considered to be women. Concern for the welfare of transmen is very much secondary to that point.

has been stated before by those who know, on numerous threads, that the NHS record has fields for both sex and gender

I didn't know this. If people don't fill in forms properly and accurately then it's fairly obvious where the fault lies. If the default for healthcare is gender, then I would ask why.

That both options are there and it still doesn't work says a lot.

@elodie77

Whatiswrongwithmyknee You haven't read the thread or my post properly. There is much that is offensive and transphobic in this thread, including in your post, and also just wrong. For example this is just silly some women don't know they are 'cervix havers' so could well not realise that they need a smear.

And not sure what you are trying to say here, but it is clear you haven't understood my post. If you think white women should not be 'shouting down' white women can you tell me why you think it's OK for men to shout down women? I know there is a small pocket of women who feel the same but the reality is the abuse and insulting which happens when women speak about their concerns is largely coming from biological men.

That's exactly what you said.

@elodie77

by saying its "just silly" that some women don't know they have cervixes you are merely demonstrating your own privilege and ignorance. As I said upthread, the Economist has reported in the last few days that 40% of women do not know what a cervix is.

That's not what I said. I meant that it's very unlikely that the NHS would devise a system whereby women would miss out on smear tests because of they didn't understand the terminology. Just the usual hysterical style on this issue.

It is people like this who cannot cope with anyone having a different opinion.

Except they did, as has been explained.

Sex is not a mandatory tick box, gender is. That is why these mistakes are being made. Gender ideology shaped the NHS data capture and this is the fall out - as predicted by many people over many years.

It has happened before and will continue to happen until someone somewhere calls a halt to the sheer lunacy of being able to opt out of your sex in your NHS data.

That's exactly what you said. And I just explained what I meant.

@herculesoffline

I've often thought that Trans men get a raw deal in the whole trans debate

Trans men don't seem to draw the same story of ire from transphobes who sensationalise.

👆🏽

It is people like this who cannot cope with anyone having a different opinion

Oh the irony.

You still haven't explained why you think 51% of the population, who still want to be referred to as women, should define themselves as 'people with a cervix' because a tiny number of females don't want to be called women?

@elodie77

That's exactly what you said. And I just explained what I meant.

Well if you say things you don't mean and mean things you don't say how are we supposed to follow your supposed argument? 🤔

Am I right in thinking that 0.6% of the population in the UK currently say they are transgender?

*Also following the braids thread with interest, with many white women shouting down black women for pointing out where the problem lies and demanding the right to continue to wear braids.

I'm beginning to agree with those who see a problem with white feminism, and I say that as a white feminist.*

Why are you conflating these two issues? Gender critical feminism is not specifically white (in fact many of its founding second wave theorists were women of colour); and why are you assuming it has anything to say about who should wear braids? On gender ideology feminism tends to divide into gender critical, radical or Marxist feminism vs liberal feminism. Neither are specifically "white". In fact, most feminist women of colour in the global South are closer to second-wave or radical feminist thought than they are to liberal feminism.

Why are you, a self-acknowledged white woman, pulling black women's hair into a discussion of how the NHS keeps data?

I have said this before and I will keep saying it.

Black men and women are not a tool for white people to use against white people they don't like.

For example this is just silly some women don't know they are 'cervix havers' so could well not realise that they need a smear

Its not silly at all

The solution is obvious. Since men can have a cervix too and not everyone knows what a cervix is, everyone of a certain age should be called in for a smear test. A nurse should easily be able to tell during the procedure if the person in question is a cervix haver or not and no one shall be mis gendered ever.

[quote elodie77]Interesting. This thread shows that much of the resistance here and elsewhere to expanding trans rights is in fact motivated by sheer prejudice.

I received quite a bit of bullying and name calling on a thread when I suggested that the debate needed to be more nuanced and that trans people also deserved rights and dignity. I was told women's safety was more important, and that is a valid point.

However women's safety is not in question here or taking away rights from anyone but making life easier for trans men, and yet posters make offensive remarks about trans people, mainly trans men here, and question the validity of transsexualism full stop. That sounds very much like transphobia.

Also following the braids thread with interest, with many white women shouting down black women for pointing out where the problem lies and demanding the right to continue to wear braids.

I'm beginning to agree with those who see a problem with white feminism, and I say that as a white feminist.

www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/koa-beck-dismantling-persistence-white-feminism-n1253555[/quote]
Nice try at derailing the thread.