To ask why Wayne Couzens needs a defence barrister?

[HeartsAndClubs]

Was just reading the BBC article about how he is due to be sentenced today, and they said that the judge will hand down the sentence after his defence barrister has spoken.

Thing is, he confessed to the murder, so it’s not as if this is a trial where guilt needs to be established and where he would be entitled to a defence to prove his innocence. So why does he need a defence barrister?

I always liked how miserable Peter Sutcliffe was at being kept alive. and didn’t Ian Brady want to be allowed to die as well?

I think that objectively it’s an interesting one isn’t it? If someone kills themselves then they are undoubtedly a coward wanting to escape spending the rest of their lives in jail and I think we should be angry at that.

But at the same time, they’re dead and I think that it’s ok to be glad they’re dead, just the means by which it happened is unfair.

You've never had the joy of a 'discussion' with someone who'll burble on that "murderers dun need lawyers" because "should just 'ang 'em."

It's tiring but tends to come up every time there's a high profile case. "I just don't understand why they're having a court case when we could be tearing him apart in the street, it seems such a waste of time."

Oh yes, because that’s what I said isn’t it? the only reason why I asked the question was because he had pleaded guilty so wasn’t being defended in a trial so to speak. You’d think the people who see fit to call me stupid and uneducated would be intelligent enough to have actually read the OP and figured that out..

He pleaded guilty, there is no question of his conviction being unsafe.

Today was a sentencing hearing, any evidence re his mental state etc would have been obtained already.

Some legal friends recommended two books when I asked for info about how our legal system works. Like the OP, there were/are gaping holes in my understanding of our own legal system.

The Secret Barrister
www.amazon.co.uk/Secret-Barrister-Stories-Law-Broken-ebook/dp/B0753GBC5Z/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&s=books&crid=1QD64Z93TECQR&keywords=the+secret+barrister&sprefix=The+Secret+Barr%2Caps%2C155&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&qid=1633016523&sr=1-1
A truly excellent book, it should be required reading for everyone. It did make me cross at the parlous state of our legal system through, and the dismal lack of proper funding to do everyone justice. I see it's been recommended already, but there's no harm in seconding it.

The Rule of Law
www.amazon.co.uk/Rule-Law-Tom-Bingham/dp/014103453X/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&s=books&crid=1GS8M9A2JD7EH&keywords=the+rule+of+law&sprefix=the+rule+of+%2Cstripbooks%2C164&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&qid=1633016594&sr=1-1
More strongly recommended by my legal friend, but it's heavier going. This one at least sticks to describing how our laws work and where they came from, whereas the Secret Barrister does get tied up a bit in the awful day-to-day of it all.

If we’re asking questions, I have one. Does he have a legal right to see his children, even against his wife’s wishes? Like can she be made to take them on supervised visits or whatever, through a court order?

It's counter-intuitive, you could reasonably think that someone who had admitted the crime and pleaded guilty wouldn't "need" a defence, because their guilt isn't in question - but it's a bigger part of our freedoms as citizens and in this case, as other posters have pointed out, the defence is there to make sure the prosecution is watertight and the conviction has no chance of being overturned on a technicality.

Also better for him to have a barrister than Sarah's poor family have to listen to him represent himself.

Time was, being a middle class middle aged woman, I would have a reasonable degree of confidence in the credibility & honesty of the police services. Not so now.

Right, but now a middle class middle aged (and I will add “white”) woman has no confidence in the police any more, something must absolutely be done about it, yeah?

Sarah Everard's family do not need to be having to face appeal after appeal.

Appeals are part of the system. Just as they should be.

I can guarantee those posters Googled this stuff this morning and didn’t know it before but are now enjoying it trying to make you feel stupid.

Sure. I had to Google to find out something which is the very basis of our justice system. Something which comes up in pretty much any TV drama or movie that involves a bad guy and his lawyer.

‘Right, but now a middle class middle aged (and I will add “white”) woman has no confidence in the police any more, something must absolutely be done about it, yeah?’

Not quite.

Neither ‘white’ nor does my complete lack of confidence now mean that I have not been aware of or campaigned for exemplary legal & police services. That said, I had ‘some’ confidence in the police services to be ‘good enough’ given the consistent under resourcing & neglect of public services.

@FlorenceWintle

If we’re asking questions, I have one. Does he have a legal right to see his children, even against his wife’s wishes? Like can she be made to take them on supervised visits or whatever, through a court order?

I was also wondering about this. I know a situation where a mother is required to maintain a contact between the children and their father in jail (albeit not for such a high profile and serious crime).

Mitigation work is important especially in early guilty plea cases since if there is no lenience shown by the legal system for avoiding a trial, everyone in future might as well plead innocent and try their luck. This was an unusual and extreme case in that regard of course.

@JosephineDeBeauharnais

It’s very likely that he’ll die in prison. For one, he’s a suicide risk, for another he’s in danger from other, equally violent prisoners with nothing left to lose and ultimately prison is very bad for both mental and physical health. Any underlying conditions he may have will get worse, he will have a long term poor diet, insufficient exercise, poor medical care. His lifespan will be shortened.

Yes and I bet being an ex Met police officer his life will be doubly hell in prison...

That said, I had ‘some’ confidence in the police services to be ‘good enough’ given the consistent under resourcing & neglect of public services.

How fortunate for you that you believed they were “good enough”.

I’d have thought if you had actually been paying attention and campaigning you would realise that for a significant number of people, they are not and have never been “good enough”

I actually think some rudiments of law and judiciary , along with benefits, first aid, careers, political system, housing etc would be a damn sight more useful for 14 to 18 year olds for a few hours a week than some of the subjects taken and certainly more useful than bringing back Latin.

Another question - I can’t for the life of me work out why he bought the hair bands. Did this come out in evidence?

@blueshiningsea

Another question - I can’t for the life of me work out why he bought the hair bands. Did this come out in evidence?

The theory I saw mentioned was to maintain an erection.

How horrible, what an abhorrent individual

@blueshiningsea The judge in summing up said it was for restraining and/or to maintain an erection. A penis pump was recovered from his house which suggested the later also.

@PinkFootstool

Everyone has the right to a proper defence. In this case, they have put forward what mitigation Couzens can come up with. Essentially they are just there as a mouthpiece.

I can guarantee they are not defending his actions, they are not trying to keep him out of jail, they are trying to do their job and mitigate. That's it.

This.

We do not want a justice system that is unfair

@LateDecemberBackInLowB12

I would think it would be to help him get a more lenient sentence and make excuses as to why he murdered her.

Someone needs to understand how the justice system works instead of getting their ideas from the Daily Mail.

There is a great deal more to the role than simply standing up in court and speaking to the judge. The defence barrister will have been the person who advised the defendant that he had no chance of a defence and should plead guilty. This will have taken a huge amount of very difficult and upsetting work.

Someone needs to understand how the justice system works instead of getting their ideas from the Daily Mail.

Someone clearly needs some bloody manners. Do you often spend your evenings looking down your nose at people and throwing little 'daily mail' insults to make yourself feel good?

This is my personal experience, my ex pled guilty to assaulting me and then came up with a whole host of reasons as to why it wasn't his fault really to get a reduced sentence, and it worked. I have plenty of experience of the justice system unfortunately. I'm sorry if I offended you by wording it in a simplistic way

The judge's sentencing remarks set out very clearly his reason for applying the whole-life tariff, including his consideration of the defence arguments

www.judiciary.uk/judgments/wayne-couzens-sentencing-remarks/

It was the right verdict, but sadly, I think he'll be dead within the year.

Whilst in custody he self harmed (smashing his head against the wall and a toilet bowl). He was reported to be shaking violently when the sentence was handed down - he is a coward.

He will be on a wing for vulnerable prisoners but there will be a constant stream of inmates wanting to earn kudos my attacking him. There is also a high chance of wardens prepared to turn a blind eye.

And if they don't get him, or after he's been got at a few times, he will top himself. I hope he isn't able to, but I am giving it a year.

What I hope is that he lives a long long life.

I hope he does get attacked but his life is spared.
I hope he lives each and every day of his miserable life in fear of being violently assaulted/raped
I hope he can't sleep at night for fear of what might happen.
I hope that any sleep he does get is filled with nightmares about what he has done.
I hope his wife divorces him and his children and entire family disown him and he has no visitors ever.
And I hope he lives to be a hundred so his torture is prolonged.

I have honestly never felt so much loathing towards someone I have never met - criminal or otherwise.

Someone clearly needs some bloody manners. Do you often spend your evenings looking down your nose at people and throwing little 'daily mail' insults to make yourself feel good?

Well said