To ask why Wayne Couzens needs a defence barrister?

[HeartsAndClubs]

Was just reading the BBC article about how he is due to be sentenced today, and they said that the judge will hand down the sentence after his defence barrister has spoken.

Thing is, he confessed to the murder, so it’s not as if this is a trial where guilt needs to be established and where he would be entitled to a defence to prove his innocence. So why does he need a defence barrister?

Does any know what his relationship with his wife was like ?
I suppose that might come out after sentencing.

Op if you’re interested, read The Secret Barrister. Gives a great outline as to how the law is supposed to work

@GoodnightGrandma

Does any know what his relationship with his wife was like ? I suppose that might come out after sentencing.

This was all her fault I expect.

Tough job for the defence barrier. Absolutely no mitigation factors in this carefully planned and utterly vicious attack. Evil is an overused word but not here. He even had a crappy 'cover' story prepared.

Hope he gets a whole life tariff.

It is slightly worrying that people don't understand why a defendant would need a barrister even at sentencing stage.

His defence barrister has to do what he can to ensure the judge takes into account "mitigating factors" which on this occasion will avoid a whole life sentence. His arguments were not at all convincing but the judges do have to work within the law. I hope he gets a whole life sentence.

How on earth can the defence argue "no-premeditation"? Shameful.

Albiet mainly family law by the end, I spent 20 years as a court solicitor.

By way of example, 90 percent of my criminal work was representative rather than trial. X pleads guilty. They are 40 years old. They have no previous convictions. They plead guilty on x date. They were arrested on y date.

Some days we might be dealing with a court list of 200 plus cases. If none of them had representation the courts would collapse. Perhaps the odd 1 a month might self represent but very rare here. Scotland.

^"I don't understand how people get kicks out of patronising people.

No-one knows every answer and people should never fear asking questions. Some excellent answers have been posted up thread."^

One of my favourite stories... will keep it DEAD brief... I'm 13, science class, never understood a word, constantly asking questions, feeling like an idiot, hardly anyone else asked questions, get to the end of the year and turns out I come joint top in the class exam, almost like I was the only one there capable of recognizing my ignorance and doing something about it, in order to get myself into a position where I could hold my head up high and look down on everyone else.

TLDR - only idiots don't ask questions.

As many PPs have pointed out that even the guiltiest of defendants needs a robust & fair trial so that the conviction & sentencing stands.

What I want to see is an immediate, thorough & transparent enquiry into how the various services that employed this man in any capacity did not act robustly on the clear evidence that he was a very dangerous man & a likely threat to anyone.

From that, an FOI exercise is due to determine what the rate of offending is across the police services.

Time was, being a middle class middle aged woman, I would have a reasonable degree of confidence in the credibility & honesty of the police services. Not so now.

@UniversalAunt

As many PPs have pointed out that even the guiltiest of defendants needs a robust & fair trial so that the conviction & sentencing stands.

What I want to see is an immediate, thorough & transparent enquiry into how the various services that employed this man in any capacity did not act robustly on the clear evidence that he was a very dangerous man & a likely threat to anyone.

From that, an FOI exercise is due to determine what the rate of offending is across the police services.

Time was, being a middle class middle aged woman, I would have a reasonable degree of confidence in the credibility & honesty of the police services. Not so now.

I agree. The Met are desperately trying to distance themselves from him and his actions as was a government minister this morning.

They can't be allowed to pretend this is nothing to do with them.

@MyCatDribbles

Op if you’re interested, read The Secret Barrister. Gives a great outline as to how the law is supposed to work

Second this. Though it isn't a comfortable read, pulling no punches on the parlous state of our justice system due to politicians trying to do it on the cheap. Just about to read the follow up Fake Law

’What I want to see is an immediate, thorough & transparent enquiry into how the various services that employed this man in any capacity did not act robustly on the clear evidence that he was a very dangerous man & a likely threat to anyone.’

This ^ plus a full review of all reports of crimes that involved men who are now or were at the time police officers as possible suspects, even if no further action was taken.

@kirinm
@Nomorepies

What unhelpful and disingenuous replies!

Of course some people won’t know this if they’ve never come across this situation before.
It’s always good (and brave) to ask questions. People learn by asking. What people don’t need are snide and patronising replies when they ask.

[quote CanICelebrate]@kirinm
@Nomorepies

What unhelpful and disingenuous replies!

Of course some people won’t know this if they’ve never come across this situation before.
It’s always good (and brave) to ask questions. People learn by asking. What people don’t need are snide and patronising replies when they ask.[/quote]
Sorry but I disagree. And it isn't an unhelpful comment given that I explained what a defence barrister at a sentencing hearing would be doing.

@GoodnightGrandma

Does any know what his relationship with his wife was like ? I suppose that might come out after sentencing.

Why do you ask particularly?

It's not at all unknown for the wife of a serial killer to have genuinely no clue. Gary Ridgway, the "Green River" killer who murdered dozens of women in the US, was married through his later killing years and his wife had no idea. It's obvious from what had been written about him that the police felt very sorry for her when it all went down.

I’d also like his name to be forgotten. Sarah Everard should be remembered, not that nothing of a man.

@Rosehip10

How on earth can the defence argue "no-premeditation"? Shameful.

It's not shameful, it's their job to test that the prosecution's case is sound. The prosecution argues premeditation, the defence makes sure it's certain. The judge then decides on how well the prosecution is able to defend their argument / how much the defence is able to disprove it.

Mitigation. Of course, there is none, we all know that.
If his defence isn’t seen to do all it can on his behalf to reduce his sentence though, it will only strengthen any case for appeal.

I couldn’t be a defence barrister, it would stick in my craw. Instead of denigrating the people who do that job though - which of course my gut tells me to do too in cases like this. “how could they? - we really ought to be grateful that there are intelligent, professional people who are prepared to carry out such a distasteful function.
If they do their job properly, it’s watertight and prevents any chance of reduction of sentence at any appeal.

Has our education system, or the English one, dropped off a cliff? The amount of utter soul-sapping stupidity one comes across; it makes me want to cry.

Because everyone should have representation.

Quote from Laurence Lee, the solicitor for Jon Venables

I didn’t choose to represent Jon Venables, but even Nazi war criminals have to be represented – and so do child killers. I represented the interests of this boy, but I never defended him. If I had been asked to prosecute him I would have done so as professionally as I represented him.

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/james-bulger-remembered-paddy-shennan-3322337

@LaetitiaASD

^"I don't understand how people get kicks out of patronising people.

No-one knows every answer and people should never fear asking questions. Some excellent answers have been posted up thread."^

One of my favourite stories... will keep it DEAD brief... I'm 13, science class, never understood a word, constantly asking questions, feeling like an idiot, hardly anyone else asked questions, get to the end of the year and turns out I come joint top in the class exam, almost like I was the only one there capable of recognizing my ignorance and doing something about it, in order to get myself into a position where I could hold my head up high and look down on everyone else.

TLDR - only idiots don't ask questions.

@LaetitiaASD I love this story

It's really important for anyone in court to have representation at this stage. I've been to trials (in magistrates though so lower level) where the defendant has defended himself but has been urged by the judge/ magistrate to get a lawyer for sentencing. It means the judge can hear all relevant facts before making a decision. For example in low level crimes if they know about someone's alcohol problems they can consider alcohol treatment as part of the sentence.

As pp it also means there is more transparency and therefore less likely to be appeals

@MrsSkylerWhite

Mitigation. Of course, there is none, we all know that. If his defence isn’t seen to do all it can on his behalf to reduce his sentence though, it will only strengthen any case for appeal.

I couldn’t be a defence barrister, it would stick in my craw. Instead of denigrating the people who do that job though - which of course my gut tells me to do too in cases like this. “how could they? - we really ought to be grateful that there are intelligent, professional people who are prepared to carry out such a distasteful function.
If they do their job properly, it’s watertight and prevents any chance of reduction of sentence at any appeal.

Defence barristers don't just work for the guilty! They do obviously have to deal with some really grim work and I don't think I could do it (although I found criminal law extremely interesting at university).

Defence barristers don't just work for the guilty! They do obviously have to deal with some really grim work and I don't think I could do it (although I found criminal law extremely interesting at university“

Indeed. Was referring specifically to this case and others where guilt is not in question.